America is giving up on the pandemic? • Hacker News Board

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#431

Post by the_pwner224 » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:27 PM UTC

gridlockd wrote: post #379

throw0101a wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a reason that the Police Police are armed. Not all Police are armed (see UK). Also, other countries, while armed, seem to use their firearms much less (e.g., the entire country of Germany seems to use fewer bullets than a single US city).

The vast majority of police forces are armed, even in low-crime countries. > the entire country of Germany seems to use fewer bullets than a single US city So perhaps guns are not actually the problem? There's commensurately little crime occurring in Germany, crime is not punished as harshly and criminals are not armed to the same degree. When somebody is getting arrested in the US, they're looking at years in harsh…

If the punishments are so harsh then the 'irrational' means seem to be pretty rational.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#432

Post by dashundchen » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:28 PM UTC

bb2018 wrote: post #372

rpiguy wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, items 1, 3, 4, and 5 are all extremely dangerous. The Not Police would be in grave danger. There is a reason that the Police Police are armed. That guy on drugs could stab you, you could pull a car over and that person could have a gun, you could go to stop domestic violence and get attacked. Police brutality goes up proportionately with violent crime in their area. In other words, the more police deal…

I'm sure there is great data on police calls but from my experience with calling 911 social workers wouldn't really help. Earlier this year there was a homeless man waving a knife at pedestrians a few blocks from my house. I know this is a mental health issue and we need do do more for our homelesss - but I couldn't ask officers to deal with stuff like that on the regular with little or no protection. I've also calle…

> Earlier this year there was a homeless man waving a knife at pedestrians a few blocks from my house.

That's sort of the point. That's a situation that may require both an armed officer and a social worker. it's not to say that there is no situation that would require it in a heavily armed nation like the US but frequently it does not. In fact many would say sending heavily armed officers where it does not require it can escalate things, and affects how these officers view and police their communities.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#433

Post by jtbayly » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:28 PM UTC

thethethethe wrote: post #76

rohitb91 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that public assembly is essential regardless of what is going on. But why were the people protesting the lock downs and business shutdowns and the limiting of freedoms the yahoos and crazy murderers? Why did nurses block them from protesting but not one would block someone now?

> why were the people protesting the lock downs and business shutdowns and the limiting of freedoms the yahoos and crazy murderers? People denounced those protesters because they were protesting because many of them thought the virus was a hoax or because they couldn’t get a hair cut or buy lawn fertilizer. The current protests are addressing systemic racism black people have faced in America for hundreds of years an…

> they were protesting because many of them thought the virus was a hoax or because they couldn’t get a hair cut or buy lawn fertilizer.

This is such a terribly uncharitable assumption and ruins any sort of ability to have reasoned discourse. Are you aware how many people are unemployed in this nation right now because of the lockdown? Are you aware how many people’s businesses are destroyed, shut down permanently? And your assumption is that the only reason anybody could be upset is because they can’t do low-priority things!?

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#434

Post by danenania » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:29 PM UTC

gridlockd wrote: post #394

danenania wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the strategy used at Burning Man, and it seems to work quite well from what I’ve heard, though it’s admittedly not a very representative slice of society. There are “rangers” who deal with safety issues or disputes, and camps devoted to caring for people who might be having a bad trip (or other kind of episode) in a compassionate way. They will only call the police as a last resort. I think a similar approach…

Like you said, that's not representative. It means nothing. Of course, if you just add up all the cases across the country, then you don't need armed police in 99% of case. The problem is that you don't know which one percent does need armed police. You want police to be able to bring the situation under control as soon as possible, you don't want to wait for people to get stabbed or shot by some guy who couldn't be…

It may not be the answer to all our problems, but when tens of thousands of people on tons of mind-altering substances are able to keep the peace without police or guns present, it certainly means something. It’s not as if there aren’t plenty of issues to deal with—issues that would surely be handled far more violently and less effectively by the police if there weren’t alternatives.

“The problem is that you don't know which one percent does need armed police.”

Perhaps there are more intelligent ways to triage than treating every situation like a military engagement?

Often the cops showing up with guns drawn is what turns a situation violent.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#435

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:30 PM UTC

jabedude wrote: post #351

chrisseaton wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Not Police would be in grave danger. There is a reason that the Police Police are armed. That don't need to be armed with firearms. That's overkill (literally overkill, unfortunately) for community policing. They could have batons. Firearms should be restricted to specialists deployed only when needed for a specifically authorised task.

> That don't need to be armed with firearms You're asking police officers to be less armed then the general public. 43 states are "shall-issue" and allow residents to conceal carry a firearm after completing required training and submitting an application.

The obvious answer is to make the public less armed than police officers.

The less obvious answer is to stop glorifying violence, including gun violence, war porn, drug kingpin lifestyles, cop/detective lifestyles, and other forms of abusive aggression in the media.

Considering that the US seems to go insane when a nipple appears on TV without a formal invitation, it's really quite strange that you can watch dramatised blood spurting out of fatal high-calibre organ wounds multiple times an hour - if you really want to.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#436

Post by GuB-42 » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:30 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #309

GuB-42 wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in the letter > Prepare for an increased number of infections in the days following a protest. Provide increased access to testing and care for people in the affected communities, especially when they or their family members put themselves at risk by attending protests. The sentence "we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission" is a bit ambiguous, maybe on purpose. The idea is that they…

A clearer stance would help, but I feel like there's a fundamental problem with taking any stance. For public health authorities to affirmatively endorse political causes severely compromises their authority as neutral arbiters.

It is not "public health authorities". It is not a message from the government or any organization in a position of power. Instead, it is an open letter from health professionals.

They express themselves both as medical experts and as human beings, so having a political stance is no problem, as long as they make it clear which part of them is speaking. I think it is not clear enough in their letter, but in my opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with their message.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#437

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:30 PM UTC

mvid wrote: post #393

manfredo wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When one group of people is holding signs that say "stop murdering people" and the other group is holding signs that say "I need a haircut," and you're mad that "the commenters" are not treating them the same, the problem is not with the commenters. This is at best an extremely distorted comparison of the two messages. 40 million people are unemployed. The stakes are much larger than just getting a haircut.

Yet those were the signs being held. There are clear goals for police brutality protests. The anti-quarantine protests had no clear goal, the narrative seemed to be “the government hit their ‘disable economy’ button and we want them to turn it back on” as if relaxing legal restrictions would suddenly make everyone ok with the rampant disease and go spend time rubbing shoulders again. People were self quarantining bef…

With the exception of restaurants, people mostly do seem to be going about their business now that legal restrictions are relaxed. As we've seen this past week or two, even giant crowds don't stop people.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#438

Post by downerending » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:30 PM UTC

jointpdf wrote: post #326

downerending wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection and far less comfortable with the police violence The chances of experiencing life-changing injury or death from either are vanishingly small. Too bad we can't get people this excited about obeying traffic regulations.

Unlike people, not all deaths are created equal (in my opinion). What I mean is: a death caused by systematic oppression/racism (especially from an entity whose core purpose is to “serve and protect”) is in some deontological sense worse than a death resulting from e.g. a car accident or even a virus. Some things defy utilitarian calculus. Also, you have to consider that there is widespread and life changing psycholo…

I've been a multi-sigma outlier my whole life. So, in a sense, I can relate. But in another sense, I envy the kind of community cohesiveness I have witnessed in the black community. I never had that kind of support when I was growing up. Always alone to deal with whatever aggressors crossed my path.

In my teenage years, I worked as a low status laborer in shops where I was one of a very few white people among mostly blacks. Most were indifferent to me. A few (all Christians) were saints, really, and I remember them kindly to this day. And a few, including my crew boss, were "unfriendly" at best, and in retrospect, racist as all hell. I don't particularly blame them, but I cannot condone this sort of behavior either.

I sympathize with those who suffer. We all suffer. And we all deserve such sympathy. Suffering, really, is the nature of being alive in our reality.

Is there more to do along this road? Yes. Are the killings and maimings we have seen over the last week in any way justified or "worth it"? No.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#439

Post by tenpies » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:33 PM UTC

watersb wrote: post #406

metrokoi wrote: post #90

Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests [0] >However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from…

Systemic inequality is a component of the clinical presentation of the covid-19 pandemic in the United States. Black Americans have been dying from the disease at twice the rate, as a group, than the population in general. In my home state, half of the reported cases are among Native American communities. Limited access to healthcare is not a theoretical challenge. The link between historical injustice manifests ever…

> Limited access to healthcare is not a theoretical challenge. The link between historical injustice manifests every day in the pandemic crisis. And the nature of this virus - rapid, asymptomatic contagion - means that any vulnerable population can be a source of ongoing infection in the general population.

Why are we assuming it's systemic access to healthcare and not say Vitamin D deficiency? Healthcare access is worst in Africa and yet their numbers and outcomes are exponentially better. So what are the differences between African communities in the US and the ones in Africa?

It just seems so politically American to assume that it must be evil systemic racism anytime a population does not do as well as white people, and yet not a peep is uttered when white people are lapped by another population.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#440

Post by DuskStar » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

andrewzah wrote: post #423

DuskStar wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to have missed the police setting buildings on fire and beating up shopowners. Not to say that the police haven't committed a ton of violence in these protests, but it's not all them.

> but it's not all them. Sure, and the other ones look the other way. Totally "good" guys just lettin' bad guys be bad guys. Until the "good" guys start going after and punishing the "few bad ones", they are all bad. If we're going to use the "just some bad apples" argument, then it might be prudent to apply it to the protestors, too? At this point it's borderline ignorant to be unaware of the ongoing police brutalit…

> > but it's not all them.

> Sure, and the other ones look the other way. Totally "good" guys just lettin' bad guys be bad guys. Until the "good" guys start going after and punishing the "few bad ones", they are all bad.

You seem to have misread "not all the violence comes from police" as "not all of the police are bad", here.