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Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

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Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sense is that most (but not all) of the people cheering this on are like you. They don't live there, they have no family there, and they have no ties to the city or the state. Spoke with a childhood friend last night, and he's leaving the city and moving to Minnetonka once his lease is up in August. Everyone else he knows is doing something similar. Obviously this is all anecdotal, and like you said we get to watc…

I still live in Minneapolis and most people that I know want to stay. Everyone who watched the video knows George Floyd was murdered, but the MPD and its union still want to fight their termination and all charges. MPD response to protesters has been incompetent, callous, and malicious. The majority of MPD are suburban Trump supporters and like all Trump supporters they can't stand progressive places like Minneapolis…

All public sector unions should be banned, I'm not going to fight you on that one. But, again, I just don't share this optimism.

>The majority of MPD are suburban Trump supporters and like all Trump supporters they can't stand progressive places like Minneapolis.

Maybe things have changed since I moved away in 2013, but this wasn't true back then. Both parents of one of my classmates in elementary school were cops and lived in South Minneapolis. If it is true today, that seems to suggest an interesting selection bias no? Either MPD only hires surburban Trump supporters or only these suburban Trump supporters want to sign up to be cops in the city. In either case, and like I mentioned above, we get to watch a neat little experiment play out in real time if we're going to disband the MPD and rebuild it.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#172
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Americans need to realize that almost everything about our society is a bad first draft, in need of prompt replacement. People reflexively defend existing institutions, but the more I've thought about it over the years, the more I've realized there's almost no aspect of American life worth preserving. Police departments might be a good place to start, but most American cities also need to address structural d…

>the more I've realized there's almost no aspect of American life worth preserving I would suggest living in a third or second world country without outside support. I had your same mindset, and did that for a few years. I could not wait to come back.

Have you ever really tried one for yourself?

East Berlin used to be second World, but many of my American friends moved there because they were tired sick of being harassed by their own country brutality and would never go back.

Even many African countries are safer than the US if you are black.

On the other side, one of the most annoying kind of tourist you can find in my city, which is Rome in Italy, are Americans.

They lack the basic notions about "respecting others cultures and habits"

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is against more police, but rather the tactics used and how that money is spent. Twenty years ago, police deploying tasers was an outlier. In 2020, it's become normalized and happens thousands of times a year. There's no reason we can't have better trained, restrained police at the same or greater budget. It's the tactics that are in question, and qualified immunity which allows bad actors to do…

One thing that must happen is we must impose enhancements to penalties for crimes committed by law enforcement/police. Assault, battery, theft, etc., by a police officer is inherently worse than that by an ordinary citizen. They have abused the immense power, privilege, and trust of their position and there should commensurate consequences.

NPR carried a segment talking about making free market liability insurance mandatory for police, with departments only paying the average rate.

There needs to be a neutral third party to assess risk, because all of the current stakeholders are biased (executive government, judicial government, community organizers, police unions).

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In neither case did they do anything that police abolitionists are asking for.

Right, what they are asking for is oversight on budget and practices, except that doesn't sound nearly as exciting as "abolish the police departments!". If they are actually asking to abolish the police departments, that's painfully naive.

No, that's not what police abolitionists are asking for. That's what police reformists are asking for. These are not the same. I posted another comment on this post with plenty of references if you want to read up on the difference.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Camden thing is going around a lot but to me it seems like they did a reorg and actually ended up hiring more police. https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justic...

I don't think anyone is against more police, but rather the tactics used and how that money is spent. Twenty years ago, police deploying tasers was an outlier. In 2020, it's become normalized and happens thousands of times a year. There's no reason we can't have better trained, restrained police at the same or greater budget. It's the tactics that are in question, and qualified immunity which allows bad actors to do…

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm against more police. I think communities would be better served by an increase in social workers in most cases. Drug usage and homelessness won't be solved by imprisoning people and forever branding them as criminals. You need bridge housing, treatment programs, and services for these people. And an educational system that is well funded, regardless of the community it serves. I think criminalizing social issues has proven to be pretty ineffective, generally harmful, and really expensive. I'd recommend checking out "The End of Policing" for a thoughtful, well-reasoned argument for decreasing the number of police. The ebook is free: https://www.versobooks.com/books/2426-the-end-of-policing

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#176
This is what needs to happen to all police departments. Slow reform won't work. What police in America do is wrong at its core. We don't need thousands of armed people roaming the streets looking for crime. Only 5% of arrests involve violence. Being a cop isn't a dangerous job, it isn't even in the top 10 deadliest jobs in America. Even when only looking at death by violence, cops aren't the most likely to die on the job (taxi/limo drivers are). We need people solving actual problems, not people trained to fear the public while also being armed armed with guns.

Some examples of why police departments should be dissolved and something new created:

Ever day when I walk to work (pre-COVID) I pass the same two police officers. They walk along the same stretch of sidewalk waking up homeless people. Ever day the walk up the same homeless people, while being armed with firearms and wearing bulletproof vests. They aren't solving a problem. The people they wake up are still homeless the next day. If instead San Francisco had a dedicated homeless department that solved end-to-end problems, they could actually solve problems. They could wake up the homeless people and talk to them, understand the root problems, and work to come up with solutions to the underlying causes of homelessness. While also finding compassionate short term help for them.

Another example is from couple days ago, when the Alameda police arrested a man, throw him to the ground and handcuffing him -- for dancing in the street outside his home[1]. Someone called called the police because they thought he might be drunk or have mental problems. But because it was police that responded, instead of community focused mental health professionals, they arrested him and used excessive force. That is when police do.

This morning I saw and recorded[2] a white women sitting on the ground have two AR-15 style rifles, two handguns, and a shotgun pointed at her. That is routine level excessive force used by cops in America. It is the type of force that escalates to killings when the white women is replaced with a black man.

At the same time the police don't investigate actual crimes. Every year tens of thousand of cars are broken into in San Francisco, and the police do nothing about it.

Here is what I want:

- No armed police officers on the street.

- Dedicated non-police departments to solve common problems, having end-to-end responsibility, with real solutions. Homeless, mental health, whatever is a big enough problem to have a dedicated departments.

- Investigators that investigate and solve crimes that impact people. They don't go looking for crime. They don't carry guns. They don't roam the streets.

- Armed response teams at stations and sub-stations. Like fire departments don't roam the street looking for fires, instead they respond from their stations. Armed police can do the same. They will only response to calls involving firearms or other imminent threats to human life. They will be highly trained, and unlike current police they will not be trained to fear the public[3]. They will be trained to stay calm, deescalate, and not use force unless truly required to save another life.

- Community liaisons. This will be like current police, but they will not be unarmed and maybe not be sworn officers (i.e., maybe not have arrest powers). Their job is to walk around and talk to the community, get to know them, understand their problems, and be a face for the government.

[1] https://abc7news.com/society/exclusive-unarmed-black-man-han...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NnvPJnRAl0

[3] https://medium.com/s/story/fearing-for-our-lives-82ad7eb7d75...

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#177

The problem is American gun culture and the probability that any call might turn into a violent one. Other countries don't have that problem so they can send unarmed social workers with higher confidence, over a life time of calls, they're going to see retirement. In America that isn't the case and responders need a gun because everyone has guns and you need to have sustainable system for keeping order that ensures,…

The protests and the surprising violence from the PDs have actually shown the value of 2A. If anything, I'd vote for disarming police, except maybe a few special units, because most of them are emotionally unstable and can't be trusted with guns or any sort of power. If you think about who the most cops are, they are just a bunch of dudes that would normally be some retail workers, but with a few months of training they are given the license to kill. Obviously, most of them can't handle this level of responsibility.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#178

The US has lots of different police forces – city police, county police, state police. Many other countries have more centralised policing with fewer levels. I think, a smaller number of bigger police forces might promote more professionalism, more professional management, oversight by more experienced politicians (state political leaders tend to be more experienced and capable than local political leaders, especiall…

> county police

This is very, very rare.

More frequently, we have county Sheriffs, not police. And their duties are quite distinct; only recently have they come to resemble police.

Shrievalty is more concerned with the functioning of the courts: sometimes holding suspects before trial (and maintaining jail facilites), ensuring the security and order of the court, protecting jury members from violent coercion, capturing fugitives, etc.

Patrolling and "preventative" enforcement is not a traditional role for the Sheriff.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the case of George Floyd, one of officers was charged with murder, the other three with aiding and abetting, so they're clearly not lawless gangs. We'll see what happens at trial, but this is a fair level of scrutiny for what happened; if police faced charges like this every time one of these deaths happened, they'd be a lot more careful.

Only because it was filmed. The entire system tried to cover it up at first from the police force, to the coroner, to the DA. When two police were fired and charged with assault for shoving a 77 year old man. 49 other officers resigned in protest. There are plenty of cases where police acted inappropriately. Like raiding the wrong house and shooting a lady while she was sleeping. https://www.npr.org/2020/05/13/855705…

> Only because it was filmed.

This is a big reason why I'm in favor of police body cams. In an innocent until proven guilty legal system, it's too easy for people to get off by saying "he lunged at me and I defended myself."

> coroner

Really? I assume you mean the country medical examiner. He ruled the death a homocide. I think people want there to be a simple explanation like "he was choked," but it was actually pretty complicated because of drugs in his system, underlying heart disease, and covid-19. I honestly think both reports are generally true, and there's enough room for difference of opinion in the exact cause of death that I'm not concerned by the different conclusions.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't even assumed guilty when they're filmed killing someone.

Yes, that's why I said should . I think bodycams themselves are fantastic tools—but like most technology, they cannot by themselves fix a human problem.

Our system doesn't assume criminal guilt under any circumstances, by design, and that's a good thing. Everybody accused of a crime has the right to a trial, even cops.
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