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America is giving up on the pandemic?

theatlantic.com

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Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#161

Post by [deleted] »

whiddershins wrote: post #151
mrcorona wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 Plain clothed police officers break into your house and execute your wife or daughter in their bed, then say it was a mistake and walk away scott-free (no charges)... Would you stay quiet and wait for the covid threat to die down before protesting or taking action?

This happened in Seattle like 10 years ago to a white guy. It’s horrible. All these things are horrible. Absolutely disgusting and inexcusable. It is also a tiny fraction of the number of deaths from the virus. Also no one demonstrated regarding that guy. I wish people would have. Maybe we could have reformed no knock warrants, and the people you are referring to would still be alive.

[deleted]

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#162

Post by DennisAleynikov »

enraged_camel wrote: post #135
DennisAleynikov wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its a similar effect on fivethirtyeight, they were closely monitoring covid with most articles, then switched to 'protests good, what is covid-19?' as the 'justified' protests have taken place

Why did you put the word justified in quotes?

protests were not justified before this point, but Covid-19 is still real so I put it in quotes since I'm not sure what counts as justification

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#163

Post by Animats »

redisman wrote: post #50
Animats wrote: post #14

San Mateo County health officer: "The third modification of the shelter in place order is being made on 6/1/20. These modifications are being made in attempt to strike a balance. They are an attempt to find a way to increase the immunity of the population (in public health terms, this is called “herd immunity”) slowly and methodically, while minimizing premature death, with equity in mind, while not overloading the h…

N95 is overkill. You likely bring down the R0 below one if everyone wears just cloth masks. Less covid droplets in shared air. I still don’t see how will public transport for example resume in the next year. My bus was always packed like sardines and couldn’t fit everyone in it at the stop

N95 protects you. Cheapo masks protect other people. That's only useful with a much higher percentage of mask usage than observed in the US.

Think this through. 50% use masks, 5% are spreading the disease. Interact with 100 people over a period of time.

- Masks which protect others: (0.95)^50 chance of non-exposure = 0.6%. 92% of population exposed.

- Masks which protect you: 50% of population exposed.

This is oversimplified, but wearing masks which protect others just doesn't do much.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#164

Post by austincheney »

newbie789 wrote: post #117
austincheney wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. Many people seem to believe this without any substance. Some people, as evidenced by comments here, only believe this when it aligns to their subjectively self valued concern. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly According to Wikipedia assembly is an example of a civil liberty. The preeminent doctrine on civil liberties is On Liberty . According to John Stuart Mill the greatest des…

I think a lot of people strongly believe things without substance, sometimes based on wikipedia and interpreting stuff written by people that died centuries before problems manifested in paradigms that would have been unimaginable to them. I'm a fan of John Stuart Mill's writing, but having a memorable book title does not make a permanently relevant tome that applies to all of history backward and forward. My underst…

Assembly is important but perhaps not the most important form of dissent. Yes, I am citing Mill as evidence.

> having a memorable book title does not make a permanently relevant tome that applies to all of history backward and forward.

The definition of liberty has not changed, so yes that essay still equally applies.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#165

Post by leetcrew »

fpgaminer wrote: post #62

Something odd I noticed in my local area is that for the most part all the protestors are wearing masks, yet people happily lounge around _inside_ restaurants without masks (and many times the staff themselves aren't wearing masks). I really feel like the protests are less of a vector than people think they are given this behavior. Perhaps it's like the car accident paradox where streets that would seem more dangerou…

AFAIK, we don't yet have a definitive conclusion on how effective the cotton masks that most people have actually are. we're pretty sure they're better than nothing, but that's about it. in my city, we've had thousands of people in a densely packed crowd marching on the interstate. they seem to have exhibited good discipline in wearing masks, but the masks would have to be really effective for that to be less of an infection vector than tens of unmasked people gathering in restaurants at a time.

imo, arguing that the increased transmission risk is justified by the importance of the cause is reasonable. arguing that thousands of people gathering in the streets doesn't really move the needle for covid infections is a fantasy.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#166

Post by vzqx »

saiya-jin wrote: post #105
djaque wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a protest in my town and there wasn't an unmasked person in sight. I think that if you showed up without one, you would get called out and asked to leave.

Serious question from non-US person - isn't one of the main reasons to also get some anonymity? As IT guy I know damn well how good face recognition software works these days, en masse. With all the biometric data US govt has on everybody, pairing would not be that hard for many.

The (peaceful) protests aren't illegal so anonymity isn't a major concern. Police might be violent towards protestors in the moment, but there's zero risk of the government tracking down and punishing protesters after the fact.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#167

Post by thethethethe »

glofish wrote: post #143
thethethethe wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a small business owner, for example, and it's illegal to operate that business, your life is also in danger and your situation deserves empathy This is a false dichotomy. Sure, these people (and their workers) deserve empathy and support, but that doesn’t mean they should be allowed to reopen. You can support business owners via financial aid or other measures while their business is closed.

no, this is not about empathy but personal autonomy and sovereignity and autocracy. Why not allow someone to do something if they are willing to take the risk, why treat them as criminals? If you believe that you get infected at a store, don't go to the store ... case closed. On what basis is the state "protecting" someone that does not want to be protected? On what basis is someone considered a criminal when a crime…

> Why not allow someone to do something if they are willing to take the risk, why treat them as criminals?

Because we live in a society and our actions affect others. When you take this argument to an extreme it becomes pretty obvious that it is fallacious. For example, do you think it is okay for someone to actively burn their garbage, venting toxic smoke into their neighborhood because they are “willing to take the risk” of developing health complications?

> If you believe that you get infected at a store, don't go to the store

It would really nice if this worked but it strikes me as a grand oversimplification of how society operates and diseases spread.

> what if the person is immune to the disease, already had the disease, or does not mind getting infected?

These people still risk infecting others and perpetuating the pandemic, which is why you shouldn’t do it, even if you aren’t afraid for yourself.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#168

Post by eganist »

axguscbklp wrote: post #152
bryant wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

From your source, white/black people shot to death by cops in 2018 breaks down as 399/209. That's about 2x. Now if I take a look at: https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2&selY... And I focus on arrests made in situations such as incidents of weapons possession, aggravated assault, or the violent crime aggregate, I don't see much of a discrepancy versus that 2x. For example, for the violent crime agg…

I don't see the relevance. Can you help me understand how this is relevant to police shooting and killing 3x more Blacks than Whites per year?

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#169

Post by monadic2 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #105
djaque wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a protest in my town and there wasn't an unmasked person in sight. I think that if you showed up without one, you would get called out and asked to leave.

Serious question from non-US person - isn't one of the main reasons to also get some anonymity? As IT guy I know damn well how good face recognition software works these days, en masse. With all the biometric data US govt has on everybody, pairing would not be that hard for many.

You might look up what happened to ferguson protest organizers: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tie...

I’m not going to claim that these were all retributive, but I can certainly understand the paranoia—legal protections only exist on paper.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#170

Post by DennisAleynikov »

hedora wrote: post #21

[flagged]

yep, you missed the facts while attempting to be snarky.

schools and shops are not reopening and if they are with social distancing and masks.

mass groups of people in every state will increase transmission more drastically than the reopening already did.

thank you for your time

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