Live data from Hacker News

Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

joeroussos.org

61–70 of 91 posts

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#61

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_hierarchy "strict accountability – those who issue orders are responsible for the consequences, not those who carry them out" If you are a subordinate and you disagreed with a certain order, either because you think the order is stupid or morally wrong, you can (and should) still carry out the order to the best of your ability. If the emotional distress caused by a contradi…

If something is morally wrong in a military context, there's a good chance that it's against international law. And the Nuremberg Principle IV states:

> The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#62
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear the question is not “is this morally questionable?” but rather “I know this is morally questionable, is there a way for me to avoid responsibility?” Otherwise I am having a bit of difficulty actually untangling your comment.

By putting a burden on people who know something is “morally questionable,” you are discouraging people from taking actions which might reveal such knowledge to them. In the hypothetical you posted, the manager is not in a position to avoid this knowledge. By your logic, an activist that knows about the conditions inside the plant is also responsible for the safety of the workers, and no action other than successfull…

This is a tortured misreading of what I’m saying - and regardless is addressed by my argument.

> you are discouraging people from taking actions which might reveal such knowledge to them

If you are deliberately and knowingly avoiding that knowledge to escape culpability then that’s morally equivalent to having the knowledge but failing to act. A police sergeant who says “get a confession, and if you rough him up don’t tell me about it” might be protecting themselves from legal responsibility but certainly not moral responsibility.

Again: there isn’t a loophole here. Constructing a loophole is itself immoral.

> By your logic, an activist that knows about the conditions inside the plant is also responsible for the safety of the workers

No - the manager has substantially more capacity to act than the activist. There is some fuzziness - is the activist is deliberately suppressing information about conditions inside the plant then they do share responsibility. But if the activist is merely ineffective then it’s not reasonable to blame them for injuries or fatalities. This is not a question that’s amenable to algorithms or flowcharts, which seems to be giving you some difficulty.

> and no action other than successfully protecting the workers will satisfy that responsibility.

This is not what my logic said at all! It’s such a ridiculous misreading that I wonder if you are arguing in good faith. I didn’t say the manager had to successfully protect the worker, but that they had to try. If machine maintenance is the responsibility of another team then perhaps the manager could do everything right and still have a worker killed. No one human can solve every problem that might come up. But if the manager knew there was a risk and did nothing, not even taking a look, then they share moral responsibility with the team actually responsible for maintaining the equipment. There is a huge difference between “the firefighters failed to stop the fire because it got too dangerous” and “the firefighters failed to stop the fire because they went out drinking,” even if in the latter case the fire was hopeless.

Again - you really can’t lawyer or logic your way out of moral responsibility, even if it works on a legal or social level. And no, there isn’t a foolproof algorithm for determining moral questions like this. But if your approach is “where are the gaps in this moral framework that lets me get away with bad things?” then you are not interested in acting morally.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#63
This is a distraction. Systemic problems require systemic solutions, not individual moral mandate. People have power to effect change together, but when atomized, you will find ways to survive and rationalize. Anyone driving the conversation towards individuals, rather then asking why these evil entities are allowed to exist is distracting from actual solutions and twisting the narrative towards one that is friendly to perpetuating broken systems.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mentioned this already folks. Nobody has the authority to break the law - not a general nor the president nor a judge nor a district attorney nor a member of parliament. A law remains the ultimate authority until it is voted out of practice.

Not having the authority, has little to do with the moral imperative to consider overriding circumstances. We all have complete authority to make personal choices as we see fit.

And your neighbour thinks the same. And by the way they have a gun. In a civil society disagreements are solved peacefully through voting and clear structures of accountability so you don't need to guess if you are responsible or not.

Even the same person disagrees with themselves over time. People who vote this way this election, vote the other way the next one.

You devise me a system where people are above the law according to their own judgement at the particular moment they see fit, and still not have violence.

This is why you can fight your entire life for the reform you like to see happen, and still not get it. But 50 years of exchanging ballots is always better than 5 minutes of exchanging bullets.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mentioned this already folks. Nobody has the authority to break the law - not a general nor the president nor a judge nor a district attorney nor a member of parliament. A law remains the ultimate authority until it is voted out of practice.

Not having the authority, has little to do with the moral imperative to consider overriding circumstances. We all have complete authority to make personal choices as we see fit.

What you call the moral imperative wasn't voted on, doesn't have a police to enforce it, doesn't have a judge to interpret it, doesn't have a media to debate it, and you just might happen to change your mind about it a couple of years into the future.

Even if you say that your strategy is to make people (including yourself) feel guilty about breaking this imperative, and amplify this feeling as much as possible so as to compensate for the lack of organization required for a proper law, it is not certain that that will ever work and I don't know of an example where it did work, although it has been tried over and over. And if I may say, it also corrupts human nature so even if it worked I won't be personally positive about it, but that is just me.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#66

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_hierarchy "strict accountability – those who issue orders are responsible for the consequences, not those who carry them out" If you are a subordinate and you disagreed with a certain order, either because you think the order is stupid or morally wrong, you can (and should) still carry out the order to the best of your ability. If the emotional distress caused by a contradi…

If something is morally wrong in a military context, there's a good chance that it's against international law. And the Nuremberg Principle IV states: > The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.

International law does not really apply and is an ideal. The fact is that the state of the world order is anarchy: there is no president of the world or a parliament voted by all inhabitants of the world. Meanwhile, each country has its own laws which really govern the public life of the people. But a very good point though and I don't know if I answered it sufficiently. However I am not sure after WW2 lower ranking german soldiers were blamed for the third reich.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#67
post #32
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. Voting isn't some divine representation of the will of the people; it's a feedback mechanism to push the governing apparatus toward goals that are beneficial to the voting population, however halting or misguided the approach is. Some people voted for McCain over Obama; does that give them the moral, anti-war high ground, since Obama killed Libyans and McCain never had a chance to? Not at all. Nor does throwing…

Voting for someone you don't want in office because you don't want that person's opponent in office even more is not throwing away your vote? Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for breakfast!

No, the current system in the US is. What the US has is a democracy, not The Democracy™.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 What makes the manager responsible is not the engagement with the question but the power and responsibility that comes with being the shift manager.

What makes the manager responsible is being a human who is aware of danger they might reasonably be able to protect other humans from.

Responsibility comes with power. Especially when managers have the power to put psychological pressure on employees to work faster, and for longer hours and therefore disregard safety procedures.

It is very unfair to hold other employees to the same standard of accountability.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having the authority, has little to do with the moral imperative to consider overriding circumstances. We all have complete authority to make personal choices as we see fit.

What you call the moral imperative wasn't voted on, doesn't have a police to enforce it, doesn't have a judge to interpret it, doesn't have a media to debate it, and you just might happen to change your mind about it a couple of years into the future. Even if you say that your strategy is to make people (including yourself) feel guilty about breaking this imperative, and amplify this feeling as much as possible so as…

That's why its called 'morals'. The compass inside us, we use to decide what's right and wrong. Its the reason anybody does anything - including follow the law when it seems like the right thing to do.

That 2nd part - where did that fantasy come from? Not sure how to respond.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats a bit like arguing that poverty is a choice, as anyone able-bodied could teach themselves valuable skills and get a job. And for some people its true. Maybe Napoleon would always become a leader and a great commander, even if he was born into a tribe of cavemen. There is a lot of draft dodging in Russia, but the army still gets it's steady stream of conscripts. Most of them dont want to be there.

For some reason some of my friends in Russia mentioned they didn't mind being in the army because they liked having 3 square meals a day, getting into good physical shape, getting weapons training, the camaraderie, being sent here and there (without having to pay for travel), etc. Personally I wouldn't enjoy it, that's for sure.

How's that дедовщина going for them?
Post reply on HN