Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

joeroussos.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 91 posts

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#21

Post by badrequest »

einpoklum wrote: post #16

> Gadaffi... South Africa... What about the US federal government? Banks and investment firms? The oil companies? Blackwater, Haliburton, Bechtel and the like? Mineral extraction companies? Or perhaps - Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft et al, who spy on you all the time? > There are obvious and important differences between war and management consulting. The first straightforwardly involves killing people, the lat…

They’re also bad, and the author never said otherwise. Why engage in whataboutism here?

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#22

Post by mantas »

RashadSaleh wrote: post #17
ilammy wrote: post #12

Many countries still have military conscription, so sometimes enlisted soldiers do not really have a choice: you are either drafted with national pride, or drafted feeling moral guilt, or jailed for dodging and then maybe still drafted afterwards into a penal batallion. Or you break and bend the law.

Very important point. It should be considered a cornerstone of democracy to have only voluntary drafting -- just like a free press and general elections.

Coming from a democratic country with drafting... It gets tricky if your country is small and in a rather delicate geographical position with questionable neighbours.

Our constitution has a line saying that it's every citizen's duty to defend the country. Essentially drafting is education how to fulfil that duty. If we remove drafting, shall we remove that constitution article? If we remove it, then citizen-government relationship gets different. Is it "our" country and we take full ownership of it or do we just happen to live here and, if this establishment is threatened we just move on to the next one?

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#23

Post by eeZah7Ux »

kd5bjo wrote: post #18
ojnabieoot wrote: post #3

> So here is an important moral question: is knowledge of moral risk (in the sense of a risk that I will do something bad, unknowingly) a reason to hold me morally culpable? I would say yes. Let’s make an analogy to physical risk: suppose you are a shift manager who is aware of general and persistent safety issues at a factory (by hearing about mutilations and deaths), even if you don’t know any of the specifics. For…

> Engaging with the question itself is assuming responsibility. This is a dangerous sentiment as it incentivizes people to not engage with such questions in order to avoid the accompanying duty, which cannot be known before considering the question.

+1

What makes the manager responsible is not the engagement with the question but the power and responsibility that comes with being the shift manager.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#24

Post by lb1lf »

austincheney wrote: post #13
RashadSaleh wrote: post #10

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_hierarchy "strict accountability – those who issue orders are responsible for the consequences, not those who carry them out" If you are a subordinate and you disagreed with a certain order, either because you think the order is stupid or morally wrong, you can (and should) still carry out the order to the best of your ability. If the emotional distress caused by a contradi…

This line of thinking does not apply to the US military. If you have reason to believe an order is illegal, or even should have known, you are just as guilty of the illegal act as the person giving an order. That being said don’t execute an illegal order hoping chain of command will qualify as a valid legal defense.

-While I have no first-hand knowledge of the US military (or, for that matter, any military - I was conscripted into a branch which didn't take hierarchy too seriously), just about every time the subject of immoral/illegal orders came up, consensus was that the smart (for the individual) thing to do was to acknowledge the order, then do nothing.

The reasoning was that refusing an order would get you in serious trouble much faster than your claiming it was illegal would get you out of trouble - hence your best bet was to get hit with a (lesser) charge of incompetence rather than having the full weight of the army come crashing down on you for refusing.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#25

Post by the-dude »

ojnabieoot wrote: post #3

> So here is an important moral question: is knowledge of moral risk (in the sense of a risk that I will do something bad, unknowingly) a reason to hold me morally culpable? I would say yes. Let’s make an analogy to physical risk: suppose you are a shift manager who is aware of general and persistent safety issues at a factory (by hearing about mutilations and deaths), even if you don’t know any of the specifics. For…

> Engaging with the question itself is assuming responsibility.

Isn't this commonly referred to as the 'Copenhagen interpretation of ethics' ?

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#26

Post by roenxi »

> There are (plainly) bad consulting projects, and so it is true that there is a risk of doing bad work as a consultant.

This bit of the argument contains the major flaw - it can be applied to literally any occupation. The most theoretically moral institution we have is the church. Ostensibly dedicated to doing nothing but espousing and propagating good in the world. Now look at what that means in practice for some of the scandals that priests get involved in.

There is no alternative morally safe place to work.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#27

Post by dmurray »

badrequest wrote: post #21
einpoklum wrote: post #16

> Gadaffi... South Africa... What about the US federal government? Banks and investment firms? The oil companies? Blackwater, Haliburton, Bechtel and the like? Mineral extraction companies? Or perhaps - Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft et al, who spy on you all the time? > There are obvious and important differences between war and management consulting. The first straightforwardly involves killing people, the lat…

They’re also bad, and the author never said otherwise. Why engage in whataboutism here?

Well, one point is that it's almost impossible to do for-profit work without benefiting someone who's a little bit evil (certainly if you feel all those entities are "also bad").

If we could instead pick 4 or 5 regimes that we consider to be the standard Bad Guys, with the benefit of history and a Western viewpoint, and just say it's clearly evil to work directly for them - then the author's thesis is much less valid.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#28

Post by ganzuul »

Young people have not established themselves and feel vulnerable in world where news of insecurity travels fast. A young adult is thrown out of their nest into the wilderness, and perception of right and wrong changes as a result. Humans are wild animals.

All moral is relative. Non-relative moral is ethics. If you have misgivings about embarking on an endeavour it is your duty to gather more information. If the information is witheld you can not proceed with your ethics intact. With enough compromise you will be without ethics and morals, and become an enemy of your kin.

It is hard to live without ever compromising one's ethics. These companies probably exploit what little flexibility young people have. I would refuse to share a dinner table with their leaders.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#29

Post by ratherbefuddled »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #23
kd5bjo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Engaging with the question itself is assuming responsibility. This is a dangerous sentiment as it incentivizes people to not engage with such questions in order to avoid the accompanying duty, which cannot be known before considering the question.

+1 What makes the manager responsible is not the engagement with the question but the power and responsibility that comes with being the shift manager.

What makes the manager responsible is being a human who is aware of danger they might reasonably be able to protect other humans from.

Re: Deciding to do morally risky work (2019)

#30

Post by eeZah7Ux »

RashadSaleh wrote: post #10

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_hierarchy "strict accountability – those who issue orders are responsible for the consequences, not those who carry them out" If you are a subordinate and you disagreed with a certain order, either because you think the order is stupid or morally wrong, you can (and should) still carry out the order to the best of your ability. If the emotional distress caused by a contradi…

The infamous "I was just following order" defense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders

> This is why not every civilian can be a military person.

This is why not every civilian wants to be a military person.

Post reply on HN