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Looking back at how Signal works

signal.org

151–160 of 301 posts

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there isn't. "All lives matter" and "pro-life" represent specific political views, but they don't represent any specific groups or organizations. Just like antifa.

You're being obtuse for no reason. This is like saying ISIS isn't an a specific group because it is comprised of transregional autonomous cells instead of any specific group. Sure, maybe in the most literal application of terms, but it's obvious what's being discussed from context clues. Decentralized movements are the status quo of activism these days, that doesn't mean you can't reference the movement as a collecti…

Thanks for this, but it’s not worth it to get into a spat on HN over this to be honest.

It’s clear from the downvote brigading that this isn’t a thread for discussion.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#152

Is it worth trying to move my friends from WhatsApp to Signal? As I understand it, they're both e2e encrypted. I'm also trying to move my chats from SMS and Gchat to something encrypted, but am torn between WhatsApp and Signal. The former has more of a buy-in with my contacts already. I realize WhatsApp is owned by Facebook, but isn't the whole point of e2e encryption that you don't have to trust the intermediate inf…

This post has a lot of good context to nuance the dynamics on WhatsApp message confidentiality: https://makensi.es/privacy/e2ee/2020/03/23/can-facebook-read...

There are specifically two points that make me not confident in WhatsApp keeping my messages secure:

* I don't have time to dig out a good source for it right now, but I remember seeing a credible claim that they already have in-place a mechanism to instruct the client app send back cleartext messages to a server. If they do not, it would be trivial to add it in an update.

* The client will keep nagging you to enable cloud backups of message history. If you our your counterparty does this, message history is stored in cleartext on one of the major cloud providers. Are you confident that the person you're talking to hasn't enabled this, maybe even by mistake?

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#153
post #2

> how we think about concepts like privacy, security, and trust I was disappointed to see that a mobile number is needed and that this number is shown by default in groups. Mobile numbers are much more trackable then email addresses in my opinion. And I do not understand at all why others should be able to see them so easily. So I now prefer Telegram because at least it hides numbers in groups by default.

They're working on the phone number issue:

> PINs will also help facilitate new features like addressing that isn’t based exclusively on phone numbers, since the system address book will no longer be a viable way to maintain your network of contacts.

https://signal.org/blog/signal-pins/

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#154

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why…

But they have stickers! Who needs good sync when you have stickers! Oh, and arbitrary emoji reactions! Seriously... I do not understand how they keep investing in this gold-plating when the plumbing keeps getting clogged up.

Signal doesn't have arbitrary emoji reactions, that is one feature I do wish it had. Though obviously I'd prefer a better desktop client first.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#155

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why…

I knew Signal was against federation but I hadn’t realized they had pretty much banned third party clients. That would otherwise have been a really easy win for people that actually care about the system integration, performance, and architecture of desktop clients enough to shun electron “clients.”

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#156

Somewhat tangential, I got into an argument about Signal last night. The other guy claimed that Signal was insecure because: * It's "Custodial E2EE" * Needs a phone number (I'm not going to bother with his complaints about the crappiness of the desktop client or convenience of the design because those are non-sequiturs to the security of the app) I asked him to define "Custodial E2EE". His words: "They have ownership…

On the first point, their understanding of Signal's key management doesn't seem to be correct. The private key is held only by the client on the mobile phone, which is one of the reasons that the desktop client is rather clumsy - it is dependent on the mobile app for initial key setup. It's also just very slow compared to the mobile app.

On the second point, I think they are quite correct. Yes, this depends on your use-case, but I consider the ability to have multiple and disposable identities to be somewhat critical to any messaging system calling itself suitable for security-sensitive use. Unfortunately, Signal is designed explicitly to make multiple or disposable identities impractical. Above and beyond their desire to be a drop-in replacement for SMS, a reason for this is almost certainly to reduce spam, as the need for a valid phone number makes it difficult to register accounts en masse.

In general, this method to mitigating abuse means that Signal cannot practically be used anonymously, which somewhat conflicts with the popularity of Signal as a mechanism for e.g. contacting journalists.

In the vein of criticizing Signal, I would also throw out that it largely abandons the problem of key distribution, effectively implementing a TOFU model that is lightly enforced at that, with "safety number changes" being pretty much normal. It is possible to verify Signal identities out-of-band but not common, and the Signal app does not really provide much tooling to make it easier.

I wouldn't say that Signal is bad, it does a great job of implementing effectively the identity semantics of SMS (including the shortcomings) but with the addition of E2E encryption and TOFU. I would stop short anyone who claims Signal to be a "perfect" or "complete" solution for encrypted messaging as there are common use cases that it has actively decided not to address.

I'm also, to be honest, somewhat baffled that your starting position seems to be that no criticism of Signal could possibly be valid, when attributing the other's viewpoint to fanboyism. Don't take that too seriously, it just stood out to me on reading. :)

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#157

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why…

For what it's worth I don't have this problem on OSX, Ubuntu, or Manjaro. My roommate also uses Windows 10 and seems to be fine.

During the past month I've seen more errors and hiccups. Like delays. I assume that's just a scaling issue.

But I do have election apps. They just eat away resources.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a massive Matrix fan and have high hopes for it but in experiments we've done with activist and journalist partners we've found the Riot.im client often gets a bit complicated for people to use. I think the main issue people have is related to keys. As I techie I love the options but I find many don't like having all the options. Signal of course is a lot easier as it hides many of those issues in the UI/UX.

I just opened my Signal desktop app that I had synced previously. It asked me to resync again with my mobile device, which needs camera permissions to take a picture of a QR code. I had previously removed Signal from my mobile device. Low and behold, my account no longer existed and I had to sign back up with a phone number. I then clicked sync and most of my messages on my desktop are gone. I don't see how this is e…

If I understand your description, you reset your account. They delete the messages for safety when you reset. An attacker could reset by getting ahold of your phone number by sim jacking or the govt getting your text. It's a safety method so no one can take you texts. Of course many people want to carry their texts along, but this is a safety risk if you lost control over your number. So that's what signal is doing. If I recall when I had to reset my own number they did say they were deleting my old messages.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mabe they just don't have the problems? I never had a single one of those you listed here.

Maybe, but I have them every single time I use Desktop, so I'm puzzled that you don't.

It's not just me. My SO, her mother and my parents doesn't either.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#160

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why…

But they have stickers! Who needs good sync when you have stickers! Oh, and arbitrary emoji reactions! Seriously... I do not understand how they keep investing in this gold-plating when the plumbing keeps getting clogged up.

Before they had stickers, people were complaining that it doesn't have stickers. Can't please 'em all.
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