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Looking back at how Signal works

signal.org

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Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#131

Post by fish45 »

StavrosK wrote: post #45

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why…

The desktop was pretty terrible for me (on Linux) for until a few months ago, but now it works perfectly. The only thing missing is sms from the desktop but from what I understand Signal won't ever add that because sms isn't secure

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#132

Post by techntoke »

secfirstmd wrote: post #98
ChristianBundy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, yes, Matrix took years to add encryption, but it works much better than Signal, even with quite a few small bugs. I'm not sure which Matrix client you use, but clients like Riot don't even let you opt out of sending read receipts unless you edit `/etc/riot/config.json` to enable experiments and then go into the settings to disable read receipts. Problems like this (and issues like this [0]) give me the i…

I'm a massive Matrix fan and have high hopes for it but in experiments we've done with activist and journalist partners we've found the Riot.im client often gets a bit complicated for people to use. I think the main issue people have is related to keys. As I techie I love the options but I find many don't like having all the options. Signal of course is a lot easier as it hides many of those issues in the UI/UX.

I just opened my Signal desktop app that I had synced previously. It asked me to resync again with my mobile device, which needs camera permissions to take a picture of a QR code. I had previously removed Signal from my mobile device. Low and behold, my account no longer existed and I had to sign back up with a phone number. I then clicked sync and most of my messages on my desktop are gone. I don't see how this is easy by any standard.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#133

Post by StavrosK »

fish45 wrote: post #131
StavrosK wrote: post #45

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why…

The desktop was pretty terrible for me (on Linux) for until a few months ago, but now it works perfectly. The only thing missing is sms from the desktop but from what I understand Signal won't ever add that because sms isn't secure

I really hope this improves, I had to reset my laptop's Signal Desktop just last week because all the messages were "couldn't decrypt" and I was missing messages on my desktop just today.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#134

Post by techntoke »

billme wrote: post #28
DaftDank wrote: post #17

What happens to Signal when the EARN It Act passes? I assume that eventually the Apple App Store and Google Play Store will just stop allowing it to be downloaded if they do not add the backdoor in? Is there a workaround that will allow people to use it still? I've heard people mention locating the servers in other countries, but wouldn't the various App stores be bound by US law and still not allow them?

Signal’s official statement on the EARN It Act is here: https://signal.org/blog/earn-it/

Signal should at least make itself available on F-Droid.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#135

Post by chishaku »

EmilioMartinez wrote: post #122
chishaku wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> feels cheap and detrimental Cool, pick a new app. It’s naive to think a small group will work against very powerful forces and against all odds and not be ideologically driven.

I'm talking about the discourse sorroundig privacy, not literally specifically about my phone. I hate to see it marketed as a tool of revolution instead of just common sense practices. Your use of "ideologically driven" is confusing. Of course they should be driven, by their ideology on how a messaging app should be. But how could their opinion on the protest drive them? Just some weeks ago a whole different crew was…

> how could their opinion on protest drive them?

Some people believe in first and fourth amendment rights.

Moxie, one of the original developers of the Signal protocol:

Tracking everyone is no longer inconceivable, and is in fact happening all the time. We know that Sprint alone responded to 8 million law enforcement requests for real time customer location just in 2008. They got so many requests that they built an automated system to handle them.

Combined with ballooning law enforcement budgets, this trend towards automation, which includes things like license plate scanners and domestically deployed drones, represents a significant shift in the way that law enforcement operates.

Police already abuse the immense power they have, but if everyone’s every action were being monitored, and everyone technically violates some obscure law at some time, then punishment becomes purely selective. Those in power will essentially have what they need to punish anyone they’d like, whenever they choose, as if there were no rules at all.

Even ignoring this obvious potential for new abuse, it’s also substantially closer to that dystopian reality of a world where law enforcement is 100% effective, eliminating the possibility to experience alternative ideas that might better suit us.

https://moxie.org/2013/06/12/we-should-all-have-something-to...

ACLU: For more than a decade now, Americans have repeatedly encountered illegal and unnecessary spying by local, state, and federal law enforcement on lawful and peaceful protesters.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/rights-protesters/sp...

EFF: Theft, damage, confiscation, or forced deletion of media can disrupt your ability to publish your experiences.

https://ssd.eff.org/en/module/attending-protest

EFF: Here is a review of surveillance technology that police may be deploying against ongoing protests against racism and police brutality.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/06/how-identify-visible-a...

> feeds the meme that privacy is for rioters

Ok, I get it. You’re upset about the “rioters”. Choose your new app and carry on.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#136

Post by windthrown »

billme wrote: post #127
windthrown wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 2019 filing deadline (including Form 990) was extended to July 15, 2020 so it may not be published yet.

Thanks, makes sense, though guess I would expect a non-profit to communicate this; don’t believe Signal even links to the 990 I linked to on their own website; possible they don’t want the public to (easily) know salaries, assets, etc - but unclear.

True, but remember that Signal (the app developer) is an LLC. The 990s may eventually be posted on the Signal Foundation website if they ever finish it: https://signalfoundation.org/

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#137

Post by searchableguy »

Gys wrote: post #2

> how we think about concepts like privacy, security, and trust I was disappointed to see that a mobile number is needed and that this number is shown by default in groups. Mobile numbers are much more trackable then email addresses in my opinion. And I do not understand at all why others should be able to see them so easily. So I now prefer Telegram because at least it hides numbers in groups by default.

Try https://getsession.org/ which doesn't require phone numbers and is a fork of signal.

It is still very early stage and discoverability/groups are half backed (can't add people to group after creating it with 10 being the limit) but it solves the centralisation problem of signal.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#138

Post by Legogris »

emptysongglass wrote: post #61
harry8 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burner sim to setup and throw away addresses this concern. Telegram, messages in plaintext on the server? Encryption that isn't open? Yeah telegram is a bit of a non-starter if you have these kinds of concerns as far as I'm aware.

Both of these rhetorical claims are misinformation. Please don't do this. Telegram messages are encrypted at rest on Telegram's servers with the keys held by Telegram the company. [1] MTProto is fully open-source. [2] Here's a FAQ of Telegram's most frequent criticisms. [3] [1] https://telegram.org/faq#q-do-you-process-data-requests [2] https://core.telegram.org/mtproto [3] https://telegra.ph/How-really-secure-and-pr…

The "encrypted at rest" claim is completely meaningless since there's no way of verifying it. If their web client can read your messages by you reverifying your phone number, so can anyone else with access to their servers.

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#139

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

fish45 wrote: post #131
StavrosK wrote: post #45

I love Signal and use it as much as I can, but I'm thinking of switching to Matrix solely because the desktop client is pretty bad. It won't show me messages until it syncs everything (so I can't even see old messages while things sync), and, what's worse, it skips messages, and multi-device just doesn't work. My laptop just shows "Message could not be decrypted" until I delete everything and reset. I'm not sure why…

The desktop was pretty terrible for me (on Linux) for until a few months ago, but now it works perfectly. The only thing missing is sms from the desktop but from what I understand Signal won't ever add that because sms isn't secure

there's still no call/video from the desktop, no?

Re: Looking back at how Signal works

#140

Post by 0d9eooo »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #62
eeZah7Ux wrote: post #54

Signal is a walled garden. They refuse to allow federation and even prohibit any modified client to use their servers. It's the least open "open source" model, and once (if) they gain significant market share they can easily close down the app and lock-in the users. Please use and spread federated alternatives. Donate and contribute.

What alternative would you recommend?

I'm surprised Briar isn't coming up more in these discussions. Maybe it's locked down too tight for everyday use, but for protesters and individuals at risk it seems ideal.

I admit I could be missing something though, as I've not used it heavily.

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