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Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

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Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#171

Post by charlesdaniels »

While I'm not super up on these newfangled app distribution systems, I've had mostly negative experiences with both Snaps and Flatpaks.

As someone that administrates a small handful of workstations and a server or two, I just don't get what these tools buy me. It seems that usually installing an application via one of these methods has negative externalities (e.g. some things not working out of box, like access to user file, or ability to play audio), or most often the applications simply don't work at all.

If snaps were able to work properly out of the box, they could be good if they reduce the work for the packagers. That said, I've burned enough of my time trying to debug broken snaps that I won't entertain ever using them again.

I guess if it works for someone else's use case though, that's nice. However it sure seems pretty grubby to install a snap when the user clearly intended to install an DEB package via aptitude.

I will say, I've had very positive experiences with AppImage. I haven't really dug into the technical details of how these different approaches work yet, since I haven't had any reason to, but every AppImage I've wanted to use has always worked perfectly.

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#172

Post by vel0city »

Sevaris wrote: post #142
nsajko wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why in the fuck is dialog an optional dependency? Not all people who use netctl want wifi-menu. > it isn't mentioned anywhere in the documentation It sure is. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Installation_guide -> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration -> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Netctl And there on the top of the netctl page it lists in a table dialog as a dependency of wifi-men…

Please tell me you're fucking joking. You can't be serious. This ties into one of my other comments about how god awful the documentation is for beginners (or even intermediates) after scrapping the beginner's guide. > Maybe, but not all people have the same opinions... Yes. And that's fucking fine. Arch Linux isn't opinionated. Which is great, but not what I (or others) might be looking for in a distro.

Installing Gentoo is super simple. It only takes three commands to install Gentoo.

# cfdisk /dev/hda && mkfs.xfs /dev/hda1 && mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/gentoo/ && chroot /mnt/gentoo/ && env-update && . /etc/profile && emerge sync && cd /usr/portage && scripts/bootsrap.sh && emerge system && emerge vim && vi /etc/fstab && emerge gentoo-dev-sources && cd /usr/src/linux && make menuconfig && make install modules_install && emerge gnome mozilla-firefox openoffice && emerge grub && cp /boot/grub/grub.conf.samp le /boot/grub/grub.conf && vi /boot/grub/grub.conf && grub && init 6

That's the first one... http://bash.org/?464385

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#173

Post by m463 »

Sevaris wrote: post #126
pkulak wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of Arch over anything else is 100% in the installation. After that, it IS Manjaro except you are using the real thing, not a derivative. I've had to trouble shoot Arch far less than any other distro I've ever used.

My main problem with Arch is that there's rarely a point where I feel like I've finished installing. There's always something missing or something not configured right. Shit, dialog still isn't a default package in 2020, which you need to use wifi-menu during the install process. So if you happen to forget to install that (and it isn't mentioned anywhere in the documentation), you're going to have to reboot into the…

Sounds like you're not an arch person (which is fine).

I find arch refreshing.

by the way, I like yad.

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#174

Post by Sevaris »

nsajko wrote: post #151
Sevaris wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BTW, you do know you don't ever need to reinstall Arch (on a single machine)? People say this, but I've found plenty of reason to reinstall Arch (none of it necessarily having to do with Arch, and more trying different distros out of curiosity and Arch remaining my main distro). I always have these discussions with Arch veterans who seem so incredulous about my frustrations with Arch. And I sort of chalk it down to…

> scrapping of the excellent beginner's guide I gather that you simply want something more opinionated than Arch, and that is OK, even the BSDs have a more opinionated install procedure than Arch. But FTR scrapping the "Beginner's guide" was done for really good reasons: it duplicated the content of other Wiki articles, which is a maintainability nightmare, and was too opinionated for Arch. All the content should sti…

> I gather that you simply want something more opinionated than Arch, and that is OK, even the BSDs have a more opinionated install procedure than Arch.

Yes, this is why I emphasized the "install and go" aspect of Manjaro. It requires a certain amount of "opinionatedness" by the maintainers, which of course isn't a priority for Arch, which is also fine.

I saw and understood the reasons for scrapping the beginner's guide. I still disagreed with it. All I saw was that the Arch community was unwilling to provide for beginners. Yes, it's a lot of effort and it is to a degree duplication, but it's duplication in the same way that Simple Wikipedia is a duplication of Wikipedia. It sort of is, but it sort of isn't.

It's duplicated effort, definitely, and if you don't prioritize onboarding beginners, then it's also wasted effort. But as somebody who personally used the guide a lot, as somebody who takes no pleasure in scouring through 5 different 30 page long wiki pages to find an answer to something trivial, the documentation as is simply isn't an adequate replacement for the beginner's guide. I've accepted that the Arch community has decided that it's the best solution, but I won't stop criticizing them in discussions like this for sacrificing such a great resource just because we happen to have different priorities.

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#175

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

simosx wrote: post #165
_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? systemd isn't the only daemon-manager.

Is the question whether snapd require an init, or whether snapd should be packaged to work with more init systems?

The point is that a "universal packages for Linux" system shouldn't have a hard dependency on systemd in particular. systemd isn't Linux.

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#176

Post by kyrofa »

flatfilefan wrote: post #20

Snap for me means Firefox suddenly says “I won’t open a new tab until you update me and I will drop all tabs on restart”. It also means cached content and configs in many new obscure places. It doesn’t mean any visible improvement so far. So hey, kudos Mint and hey, Ubuntu stop that already.

Uh yeah, that's just Firefox in general, from a snap or a deb.

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#177

Post by simosx »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #161
simosx wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This polemic attitude is really bad for open-source. Snap packages are good, and such efforts may help get the Linux desktop rise over the 3%. Lenovo announced they are fully supporting Ubuntu desktop for two lines of computers.

Okay...so? Lenovo also announced they're going to certify some laptops for Fedora as well: https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-lapt... If you're suggesting that we all need to rally behind everything Canonical does because Ubuntu has the best shot of propelling Linux into the mainstream, I would say that's all the more reason to hold them accountable for decisions that the Linux community finds un…

Lenovo, in their announcement, they start by saying that they made the move because the Linux desktop stands at 2.7%. And they want in, in this 2.7% market. If the Linux desktop becomes a 5% market, or a 8% market, then it will open the floodgates to other companies offering support to desktop Linux.

Source: https://news.lenovo.com/pressroom/press-releases/lenovo-brin...

What I see on HN is perpetual bitching and anti-Ubuntu sentiment. As if the Linux desktop is a zero-sum game. One wins and the rest are gone. In the harsh reality, if the Linux desktop gets like 5% or more, it will signal other companies to start supporting.

The chromium issue has been around since October 2019, https://snapcraft.io/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-tra... Ubuntu cannot support a deb package because Chromium is huge in their dependencies and cannot provide timely updates. Therefore, there is only a snap package. And, what happens if the end-user tries the chromium browser? The system transparently installs the snap package instead of presenting an essay to explain the full background.

Is it so difficult to say respectfully, "everyone do your thing to increase the marketshare of desktop Linux so that it eventually opens the floodgates of support".

You cannot increase the Linux desktop marketshare by staying within the 2.7% of the Linux desktop. You just need to attract new Windows users, not steal Ubuntu users.

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#178

Post by Sevaris »

m463 wrote: post #173
Sevaris wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main problem with Arch is that there's rarely a point where I feel like I've finished installing. There's always something missing or something not configured right. Shit, dialog still isn't a default package in 2020, which you need to use wifi-menu during the install process. So if you happen to forget to install that (and it isn't mentioned anywhere in the documentation), you're going to have to reboot into the…

Sounds like you're not an arch person (which is fine). I find arch refreshing. by the way, I like yad.

I used to be when I was younger. I used to spend days and weeks on this stuff and enjoyed it. But nowadays I have more important (and interesting) things to do (from my perspective).

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#179

Post by rlpb »

chintan wrote: post #34

Hundreds of organizations, including ours, rely on Rocket.Chat for their internal messaging. It all went down when a release was pushed and snap decided to auto-update [1] I can imagine it resulted in a huge loss of productivity at all these orgs in the Covid era. Just learnt from this thread that apt-install will install snap! I'm running Ubuntu 18.04 + i3 (Dell Developer Edition) but will change to Debian. [1]. htt…

apt cannot revert, not even in principle. snap can in principle, and it should just be one command. It looks like it didn't work in this case because of a bug in Rocket.Chat's snap packaging. But bugs happen in everything despite their packaging format, and most users are affected by regressions in apt package updates anyway.

Re: Linux Mint Dumps Ubuntu Snap

#180

Post by kyrofa »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #31

Ubuntu 18.04 LTS is currently super popular for servers. Any thoughts on whether 20.04 is a worthy upgrade for servers, or just a pain? Snaps in particular sound good for desktops but not servers.

There are definitely snaps that are useful on servers, like LXD and Nextcloud.
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