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Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

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Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#41
post #5

And that's why we don't trust "the good guys" with our data. There are no good guys, keep your damn data to yourself no matter what.

While I understand the thinking here, it's a bit sad. It seems quite likely that very useful medical advancements could be made by looking for correlations in large databases of a variety of medical data. Or correlations between health histories and genetic data. If we gained understanding that led to improved healthcare for everyone, wouldn't someone doing this kind of work be a "good guy"?

Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you're informed enough to know what doctors need to know about your medical history to best treat you?

It seems pretty common sense that the main things people want to convey in medical emergencies where they're unconscious or their identity is unknown are allergies and reactions, hence why we have medical allergy bracelets and similar things. If it's life and death and I'm unconscious, it's unlikely they would be able to access my medical records regardless, given the state of healthcare data interoperability (I have…

You have some weird and contradictory views here.

You admit that medical bracelets are a good thing. But then you go off and say stuff like "it's unlikely they would be able to access my medical records regardless". What? It's not "regardless". We can fix that. That's the point of this thread branch.

Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear about NHS extremely often. I’m German

If you use Hacker News, you probably do hear about it often. Do German newspapers cover the news about NHS all the time?

> If you use Hacker News, you probably do hear about it often.

Well, this sub-thread was about someone saying NHS is not that well known… on HN ;)

> Do German newspapers cover the news about NHS all the time?

I wouldn’t know, I rarely read them.

Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#44
post #41
post #5

And that's why we don't trust "the good guys" with our data. There are no good guys, keep your damn data to yourself no matter what.

While I understand the thinking here, it's a bit sad. It seems quite likely that very useful medical advancements could be made by looking for correlations in large databases of a variety of medical data. Or correlations between health histories and genetic data. If we gained understanding that led to improved healthcare for everyone, wouldn't someone doing this kind of work be a "good guy"?

It is sad. It’s the nature of the beast; oversight is as weak as water, foresight limited, opportunities for misuse and insecurity boundless. Trusted organisations have become the frontmen for all this bullshit, and people are frankly being conned en masse.

The problem with all these “atoms for peace” style big data initiatives is that they must naively ignore the weaponisation of data to justify their benefits. Our civilisation having access to big data is like a Neolithic people trying to handle uranium. Not only are we ill equipped to mitigate the dangers involved, we don’t even fully understand what they are yet.

Perhaps one day our species will evolve to the point where we can make use of these wonderful technologies without blowing our society apart in the process. Until then, absence of data is better than presence of mind.

Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems pretty common sense that the main things people want to convey in medical emergencies where they're unconscious or their identity is unknown are allergies and reactions, hence why we have medical allergy bracelets and similar things. If it's life and death and I'm unconscious, it's unlikely they would be able to access my medical records regardless, given the state of healthcare data interoperability (I have…

You have some weird and contradictory views here. You admit that medical bracelets are a good thing. But then you go off and say stuff like "it's unlikely they would be able to access my medical records regardless". What? It's not "regardless". We can fix that. That's the point of this thread branch.

I wish. You haven’t dealt with EHRs I take it. Try it sometime versus greenfield development and you’ll share my “weird” views as you put it.

Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#47
post #13

At this point, if you work at Palantir, you should be very ashamed of yourself and please consider quitting.

I think the same should be said for the people at AWS: they run the GovCloud region hardware on which the Palantir code runs.

There’s also a similar case against Microsoft.

Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be good advice in general, but I don't think that works with medical data. If I get hurt and end up in a hospital, how would the surgeons decrypt my hard drive to find my medical history if I'm unconscious? Obviously I need to entrust this data to somebody. Edit: Not being a doctor, it's difficult for me to anticipate what sort of information doctors would consider relevant. Certainly there are some easy c…

I'm willing the accept the 5% extra chance of death entailed by some emergency doctor not knowing my medical history. If I have something crucial, like an allergy to medication, I guess I'd just get that tattooed somewhere obvious. In the vast majority of emergency cases for the vast majority of patients, I don't think one's medical history is going to be a significant factor in getting them out of the woods far enou…

> I'm willing the accept the 5% extra chance of death entailed by some emergency doctor not knowing my medical history.

That seems logical in theory, but in practice, that is not actually how this kind of thing works. I know firsthand: I ultimately survived a series of differing and often unusual medical crises in my 20s, that I really should not have ultimately survived, individually or collectively, statistically speaking. I never actually pictured myself once, after turning age 18, ever being age 30. I never once believed that I would ever be 30, in my adult life. Now, every year after 30 to me is a gift.

If you do not think that something like this can happen to you: 7-8% of the general population collectively has some sort of a rare disease. Rare diseases can look exactly like a small collection of different common health problems that people with chronic illnesses may legitimately regularly acquire. It requires a lot of intuition, knowledge, experience, and foresight to actually get something like this right. This requires medical expertise and being an excellent clinician is essential. This is not a problem that software engineers can solve on their own.

Also, medical records are almost always littered with a ton of errors, that may seem minor to you, but in reality, they really are not. Considering the third leading cause of death in the US is considered to be preventable medical errors [1], which is appalling, you better being going through your medical records in detail, correcting each and every error (along with sharing the records--by giving physical copies--for security reasons--to the other provider--if they do not have full access to complete health records), if you plan on staying alive long-term, whether you are healthy or not.

We have a tremendous way to go on medical records and medical data, and it is really not something that AI can practically solve, in general, due to so many errors, bad datasets, and profound hoarding of data.

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/05/03/4766361...

Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#49
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is about the NHS though so hospitals and doctors all access the same system/are all the same “medical provider”.

Not really. Hospitals don't talk to each other properly, GPs don't talk to each other. I've been asked to bring blood test results in paper from my GP to a specialist clinic because they couldn't work out how to get them emailed over - and it is essentially various forms of email that much exchange does happen over. An "integrated system" has been something the NHS has been sinking money into for decades and getting…

Amen its normal if you cross NHS trust's for more complex cases.

I cant go to my local hospital for some of my tests (post transplant related) which is 30 mns away by bus instead I have to go to another hospital which by public transport will take an entire day.

Re: Government finally publishes NHS contracts with Palantir, Faculty and big tech

#50
post #41
post #5

And that's why we don't trust "the good guys" with our data. There are no good guys, keep your damn data to yourself no matter what.

While I understand the thinking here, it's a bit sad. It seems quite likely that very useful medical advancements could be made by looking for correlations in large databases of a variety of medical data. Or correlations between health histories and genetic data. If we gained understanding that led to improved healthcare for everyone, wouldn't someone doing this kind of work be a "good guy"?

There have been reports on this site, of severe healthcare provider (as in HIPAA protected data) privacy violations, that occurred via data broker intermediaries through popular social media platforms. You know, getting a $60 FedEx package consisting of baby formula, during the month that the baby you miscarried should have been born, that almost cost you your life too.

The amount of bad medical data, erroneous medical data, and just medical errors in the US is actually unbelievably astonishing.

Finding correlations in datasets (even the most perfect dataset!) for use in healthcare is a profoundly unethical social experiment, both among the population and the individual.

We all know that the field of software engineering has faced scandal after scandal when it comes to ethics. The list of examples is practically endless now, and this is one of the most dangerous examples by far.

I mean, it really should be apparent.

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