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If you see the cops, start recording

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Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#111

Post by fenwick67 »

dominotw wrote: post #19
rectang wrote: post #9

> But before action was taken by city leaders, Buffalo police lied about the incident. In an initial statement, the department said that a person was arrested "during a skirmish with other protesters," and that "during that skirmish involving protesters, one person was injured when he tripped and fell." The video clearly refutes the statement, showing that there was no skirmish around the elderly man, and that the of…

There is parallel with pilots and airplane crashes. There is a tendency for airlines to put the blame on a pilot in case of a crash, this disincentives pilots from speaking the truth. Unfortunately the 'anti cop' sentiment would have the same effect. Imgaine how hard it is for us to admit a mistake at work which brings the website down but here someone's life is at stake. What happens if a cop makes a mistake and cau…

The solution is guilty pleas.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#112

Post by downerending »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #47
dominotw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is parallel with pilots and airplane crashes. There is a tendency for airlines to put the blame on a pilot in case of a crash, this disincentives pilots from speaking the truth. Unfortunately the 'anti cop' sentiment would have the same effect. Imgaine how hard it is for us to admit a mistake at work which brings the website down but here someone's life is at stake. What happens if a cop makes a mistake and cau…

I'm a pilot. This isn't remotely a fair comparison. There are lots of very complex and nuanced situations in aviation that require judgment calls. People are going to get it wrong sometimes. We're human. That's a far cry from this situation. There is no "judgment call" here: don't violently shove elderly people to the ground for no reason. If you accidentally do, help them up. If you pass by an elderly person lying o…

It's not a fair comparison. Pilots don't have to deal day in and day out with the sort of hostility and abuse we're seeing here. It's a godawful, thankless job, and I admire those who do it anyway.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#113

Post by sremani »

cwkoss wrote: post #6

I think half of the police force should be 'armed' with nothing more than cameras. Arrests are not necessary in the vast majority of situations police are called for, and recording technology is far superior to verbal testimony for serving our courts

It only takes one violent engagement for life to end. As long as #2A is there, you have to give cops firearms to protect themselves.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#114

Post by neilv »

dominotw wrote: post #19
rectang wrote: post #9

> But before action was taken by city leaders, Buffalo police lied about the incident. In an initial statement, the department said that a person was arrested "during a skirmish with other protesters," and that "during that skirmish involving protesters, one person was injured when he tripped and fell." The video clearly refutes the statement, showing that there was no skirmish around the elderly man, and that the of…

There is parallel with pilots and airplane crashes. There is a tendency for airlines to put the blame on a pilot in case of a crash, this disincentives pilots from speaking the truth. Unfortunately the 'anti cop' sentiment would have the same effect. Imgaine how hard it is for us to admit a mistake at work which brings the website down but here someone's life is at stake. What happens if a cop makes a mistake and cau…

The area of flight safety provides some interesting practices to think about.

You might like some of the mission and stated thinking behind ASAP and ASRS, and that there's interest in encouraging pilots and crew to speak up about mistakes and other safety-related observations, so that everyone can learn and benefit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_Safety_Action_Program...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_Safety_Reporting_Syst...

Also related is FOQA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_operations_quality_assu...

I don't know enough about law enforcement to say whether and how any of these practices might be helpful to adapt to different and complicated challenges there.

Regarding admitting a mistake in software development/operations work that brings the site down, it helps to have a culture of trust that everyone can admit making mistakes. In that culture, you'll probably still feel sick and humbled by the mistake, but the first priority is for the team to solve the immediate problem. After that, everyone wants to understand the mistake, to try to learn and avoid problems like that in the future. The professional move is to be upfront with all pertinent information; the unprofessional move would be to attempt to hide information, misdirect efforts understanding the cause, etc. The professional move by everyone else is to expect and respect that professionalism, and to act in the same forthright spirit.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#115

Post by AnimalMuppet »

0xffff2 wrote: post #58
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If told to stop recording, I'd be tempted to reply, "Sir, I am recording for your protection." Note well: I have not actually tried this. IANAL, and this is not legal advice. Your mileage may vary.

Why? What do you hope to achieve other than to possibly inflame the situation? I can't possibly believe that you think the cop is going to think "gee, that's a good point citizen, please carry on".

It forces the cop to either admit that he's a bad guy (or at least crossing the line), or else to not cross the line. It makes it so he can't try to pretend to me that he's squeaky clean while actually doing dirty stuff.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#116

Post by taborj »

athenot wrote: post #52
mod wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not evidence that it could be done in the US.

Indeed. It might be evidence that there are simply way too many guns in the wild in the US; and that statistically, the likelihood of violent conflict is therefore higher in the US than in other countries.

> the likelihood of violent conflict using a firearm is therefore higher

Violent conflict exists everywhere.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#117

Post by mulmen »

cwkoss wrote: post #6

I think half of the police force should be 'armed' with nothing more than cameras. Arrests are not necessary in the vast majority of situations police are called for, and recording technology is far superior to verbal testimony for serving our courts

I like the reference to a camera as a weapon. It should be used with some discretion, especially by police.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#118

Post by jakelazaroff »

travjones wrote: post #4

Cops may ask you not to record and even threaten you with arrest for recording. Do not be intimidated; it is your right to record without obstructing. If you find yourself in a situation where you might be detained and thereby unable to control interactions with your device, on iPhone you can disable TouchID and FaceID by holding one of the volume buttons and the sleep/wake button simultaneously for a few seconds. Th…

> Do not be intimidated; it is your right to record without obstructing.

Be very careful taking this advice. If you weren't already aware, the past week should make it crystal clear that police have absolutely no problem arresting or assaulting you for exercising your rights.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#119

Post by tialaramex »

dominotw wrote: post #19
rectang wrote: post #9

> But before action was taken by city leaders, Buffalo police lied about the incident. In an initial statement, the department said that a person was arrested "during a skirmish with other protesters," and that "during that skirmish involving protesters, one person was injured when he tripped and fell." The video clearly refutes the statement, showing that there was no skirmish around the elderly man, and that the of…

There is parallel with pilots and airplane crashes. There is a tendency for airlines to put the blame on a pilot in case of a crash, this disincentives pilots from speaking the truth. Unfortunately the 'anti cop' sentiment would have the same effect. Imgaine how hard it is for us to admit a mistake at work which brings the website down but here someone's life is at stake. What happens if a cop makes a mistake and cau…

One of the key things the airline industry did to fix this was record everything. Same on the railways. Cockpit voice recorders on planes, Forward Facing CCTV on trains (there's only one driver usually so recording what they say is unlikely to present useful evidence).

When you tell investigators "A fucking bear was on the track!" the investigators don't believe you. Far more likely you screwed up and have made up this excuse about a bear.

When your train has FFCCTV you know the investigators are going to check it and they are going to see the bear. This country doesn't even have bears - what the actual fuck!

And that pays dividends because now staff have every reason to expect investigators will believe them if they tell the truth, and it means investigators spend less time second guessing human recollection of events which means more time to deal with the actual events of the incident.

Re: If you see the cops, start recording

#120

Post by [deleted] »

sremani wrote: post #113
cwkoss wrote: post #6

I think half of the police force should be 'armed' with nothing more than cameras. Arrests are not necessary in the vast majority of situations police are called for, and recording technology is far superior to verbal testimony for serving our courts

It only takes one violent engagement for life to end. As long as #2A is there, you have to give cops firearms to protect themselves.

[deleted]
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