Earlier quoted context omitted.
An implicit threat of force is very different from an explicit application of it. Feeling disgruntled (perhaps by proxy) over a small fine is not the same as being actually beaten, gassed, or jailed. You're not teaching me anything I don't already know, so what point are you attempting to make here?
They are different, but it's not clear to me that the distinction is significant in the context of OP I was addressing which is the exact point I was making. Not every difference is relevant in every context. As for me not teaching you anything you don't already know, I can't possibly have any idea what you do or don't already know and I think it'd be more productive to leave that kind of snark out of the discussion…
Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
111–120 of 142 posts
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
For example, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer has been very strictly enforcing the shutdown and social distancing in her State, but yesterday was out with protestors in dense crowds.
Has she? It seems there was no attempt to stop the lock down protests either and those were quite a crowd.
> Question: Governor, you said this morning in The View that the protests that we’ve been seeing at the capital could be potentially adding to the spread of COVID-19 as people not listen to the stay at home orders and congregate. What proof do you have to show that that’s happening? And as well as … have to show that that’s happening and as well as COVID-19 spreading into rural areas because of that.
> Governor Gretchen Whitmer: Yeah. So I think that I saw one report. I don’t have proof. I’m not following everybody home and taking their temperatures and watching them for two weeks. But here’s what we know. When COVID-19, the way that it spreads is person-to-person contact, that it can stay in the air for a while, that it is when you’re closer than six feet, not wearing masks, it is when you’re touching one another. We saw a lot of that at these protests at the Capitol. That’s how COVID-19 spreads. We know it’s incredibly contagious and there are a lot of people who get COVID-19 who are asymptomatic and so they’re conducting life as though they’re healthy because they honestly think they’re healthy, but they’re carrying it and spreading it. That’s the insidious nature of this virus.
> So that is always been a concern. When people congregate, they take it back to their communities. We’ve seen that over and over again. There was a group that did a report that they had put up a geo fence around the Capitol and then monitored cell phone data and that it translates where we are seeing hotspots in rural parts of Michigan. I don’t know the group, I have not vetted the data. I can’t vouch for it, but I think that that would not be a surprising outcome if that was the case.
> That’s why I think it’s so important that, if people are determined to protest, I ask that they do right on their own, by themselves, by their own health, by everyone who lives in their household, everyone that they are around and take precautions to protect themselves, wear the mask, stay six feet away from other people. And that they do it on behalf of our first responders too, the police that are onsite, the nurses and doctors who are stressed out because they’re treating COVID patients, their local hospitals, which if they are from a more rural community do not have capacity to meet the need of an outbreak.
Now that she agrees with the aims of the protestors, she not only does not denounce them for violating social distancing orders, she actively participates.
This is not to say anything about the relative merits of the individual protests themselves, which I think should be irrelevant when it comes to public health orders that claim to be necessary to control the spread of a dangerous pathogen.
If mandatory health orders can be suspended, or in fact actively defied by the head politician who has enacted them, based on the particular cause being deemed worthy or not, I think this is a breach of the public trust, which sacrificed 40 million jobs and trillions of dollars in the name of these shutdown orders.
[1] - https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/michigan-governor-gretc...
[2] - https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/06/04/gov-whi...
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You really can't wait a couple months until this LITERAL PANDEMIC is over? Where does "a couple months" come from?
The pandemic won't go away in a few months, but cases are trending significantly downwards. I think it's fair to predict that mass gatherings will be much safer in August than they are today.
I don't mean to nitpick, as I wish to uphold the high community standards here, but this is false when compared to the worldwide data in aggregate. New cases are actually spiking, higher than during the lockdown. See [1] , at the bottom right, "daily cases" tab. The record for 'total daily new cases' of ~130k was set 2 days ago, on 3 June.
Making individual (or collective) decisions based on the false premise of "cases are trending significantly downwards" is very dangerous.
[1] https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.h...
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but to avoid combating parties one-upping each other with chemical warfare That policy makes sense and seems applicable to protests to prevent peaceful protests from escalating and becoming violent.
No its specifically about field commanders. When a field commander sees gas they respond with gas because the taboo has been broken and they may have insufficient data to know that its less-than-lethal. Protesters are not armed with WMDs that they can radio in before the smoke clears. It can certainly escalate a situation but its unlikely to break the WMD taboo which is what the treaty cares about.
Eventually, this tit-for-tat ends up with lead bullets and dead people.
Tactics like those used in Denver, ones of deescalation, have been far more successful in keeping protests calm, coordinated, and predictable: https://coloradosun.com/2020/06/04/denver-george-floyd-prote...
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#115My girlfriend worked in eye care for years, she's seen a lot of pretty bad injuries over the years one of the worst stories though was a teenage girl who was pepper sprayed in the face at close range. It basically disintegrated her eye balls. One of them was nearly completely gone and the other one had about 30% of its tissue remaining. She permanently lost her vision and had to undergo multiple surgeries and rehabil…
There's no way this was from regular pepper spray. Maybe some kind of acid? Or blunt force?
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#116My girlfriend worked in eye care for years, she's seen a lot of pretty bad injuries over the years one of the worst stories though was a teenage girl who was pepper sprayed in the face at close range. It basically disintegrated her eye balls. One of them was nearly completely gone and the other one had about 30% of its tissue remaining. She permanently lost her vision and had to undergo multiple surgeries and rehabil…
but its inflammatory not caustic?
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
The ones that agree with you would not support the protests, while the ones that disagree would.
Actually, in general we support the protest insofar as we agree that there are problems with certain police incentive structures. We heavily disagree with the rioting and looting. Where we disagree with some people is the generalized notion that the principles of America are inherently evil and racist and that Americans society now in general is racist.
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
The pandemic won't go away in a few months, but cases are trending significantly downwards. I think it's fair to predict that mass gatherings will be much safer in August than they are today.
> but cases are trending significantly downwards I don't mean to nitpick, as I wish to uphold the high community standards here, but this is false when compared to the worldwide data in aggregate. New cases are actually spiking, higher than during the lockdown. See [1] , at the bottom right, "daily cases" tab. The record for 'total daily new cases' of ~130k was set 2 days ago, on 3 June. Making individual (or collect…
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#119My girlfriend worked in eye care for years, she's seen a lot of pretty bad injuries over the years one of the worst stories though was a teenage girl who was pepper sprayed in the face at close range. It basically disintegrated her eye balls. One of them was nearly completely gone and the other one had about 30% of its tissue remaining. She permanently lost her vision and had to undergo multiple surgeries and rehabil…
There's no way this was from regular pepper spray. Maybe some kind of acid? Or blunt force?
Likely it was the pressurization issue that just blasted the person's eyes. Meaning that the pepper-spray had to be right up in there. I would not want to take a hist from a garden hose at full blast to my eyes, let alone something like that.
Re: Tear Gas Is Way More Dangerous Than Police Let On - Especially During COVID
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then where were the protests when similar incidents happened dozens of times before COVID? Has there been anything on this scale since Rodney King?
Are you suggesting we shouldn't protest now because we haven't protested at such a scale in a while? There have been protest since King, though not at this scale, no. The current circumstances are Political with a capital P, the class of things that can reshuffle a society. If this isn't the time to protest for redress of grievances, then there is no time. And I disagree if you're arguing that protesting is not essen…
I am suggesting that the our reaction to the issue very much depends on whether there is a pandemic or not, and that the vigor of these protests is not despite the pandemic but because of it.
I can respect and admire the decision that you personally dying of COVID-19 is worth it in order to express this grievance, but the nature of infectious disease is it's not just yourself that you're sacrificing here.