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Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

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Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#211
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the abstract police are necessary. In today’s America, with the police as they actually exist today, they are very much not necessary, and are a drain on public safety, social order, and personal liberty.

That doesn’t make sense. There are 300 million guns in America and plenty of crime happens every year. It’s true crime is down from the historical highs of the 70s and 80s, but there are very much still murders and thefts that need to be investigated and punished. The reality is if police were abolished we’d go back to the bad old days of private detective agencies being used for security. Would you rather have some…

The bulk of crimes committed in the USA do not require traditional LEO aside from apprehensions. Investigations, evidence collection, interviews, etc can all be done by any old bureaucrat. Much like the FDA investigators and Fire Marshals don't need the authority of an LEO.

There's no need for police to be first-responders in purely medical situations. It's unfair to expect that police also take up the burden of medical care. While we are at it, it's also silly that the fire department responds to non-fire medical incidents in their big ass fire truck. Doing so compromises their abilities to handle situations where their expertise is explicitly required.

Every town in America does not need a SWAT team. Thsoe should be specialized agencies that serve a particular region and have a limited number of deployments.

If we were building a system from scratch today, people would not suggest dumping these duties on beat cops.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#212
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality it's an absolute dogshit job. The hours are long, there's a very real chance of PTSD or bodily harm, and they haze you worse than bootcamp. LAPD has a problem recruiting since everyone who is level headed enough to make a good cop sees it rightly as this horrible job.

They can fix some of that on their own and they choose not to.

You can fix a lot of it but at the end of the day, no one likes standing on your feet directing traffic for hours in a black uniform on a hot day, or having to pin down an aggressive drunk at 3am. LAPD functions in a lot of ways as a bouncer would, but with more risk of contracting bloodborne disease. It's just a not a very pleasant line of work no matter what you do or how you reform the system, and that's why they can't recruit.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This principle incriminates the protesters just as much. There is widespread rationalization and support for the "few bad apples" perpetrating violence/looting/burning/rioting. There is very little condemnation. Lots of quoting MLK Jr. "rioting is the voice of the unheard" and yet MLK Jr. certainly did not practice or advocate violence. If the protesters can't regulate their own bad apples then how can they judge pol…

> If the protesters can't regulate their own bad apples then how can they judge police for not being able to? Police are hired by a system, trained on constitutional law, trained in law enforcement technique, take an oath to enforce the law (including the constitution and the public trust), are paid money for their on duty actions, and have a system of discipline and internal review. What the protestors have in commo…

It's not a false dichotomy. It's an ethical double standard. If you don't live by your own ethics, how can you judge someone else for not living up to them as well?

Police are just people. Protesters are just people. Every one of them has to decide what they will and will not abide.

It's not a matter of protesters not being able to stop the extremists among them. They're not even trying. They don't even want to.

The problem is that most people (including here in these comments) are rationalizing the actions of these extremists, hence the misapplied MLK Jr. quote. This is an implicit endorsement.

A black police officer was killed by extremists. There is serious violence and burning by extremists. These acts are being implicitly endorsed. In the same way Trump implicitly endorses the behavior of his movement's extremists, by not vehemently denouncing it and distancing himself from it.

It doesn't require training or an oath to condemn extremists and seek to exclude them from your movement. It just requires principle.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#214
post #21

Have switched from Slack to discord and our team has been happy.

I've used Discord for years, and admin a small community server.

With the new video chat features, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a B2B offering soon. I certainly hope that they do so: their platform is mature, and more useful than Zoom and Slack.

Server mutes. Local volume. Push to talk. Krisp noise cancellation. Non-hostile UX. Non-threaded conversation.

In Zoom, when the presenter shares their screen, you're forced into full screen, which disrupts my note taking flow. The meeting chat's also a joke. Sure, Zoom is a useful FaceTime alternative for Enterprise, but it isn't good for collaboration. It's very self centered.

Zoom also took the interesting stance of letting FBI/Police have access to user conversations. Discord doesn't have E2E, but they did tweet a post of solidarity.

/rant

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t make sense. There are 300 million guns in America and plenty of crime happens every year. It’s true crime is down from the historical highs of the 70s and 80s, but there are very much still murders and thefts that need to be investigated and punished. The reality is if police were abolished we’d go back to the bad old days of private detective agencies being used for security. Would you rather have some…

The bulk of crimes committed in the USA do not require traditional LEO aside from apprehensions. Investigations, evidence collection, interviews, etc can all be done by any old bureaucrat. Much like the FDA investigators and Fire Marshals don't need the authority of an LEO. There's no need for police to be first-responders in purely medical situations. It's unfair to expect that police also take up the burden of medi…

> Investigations, evidence collection, interviews, etc can all be done by any old bureaucrat. Much like the FDA investigators and Fire Marshals don't need the authority of an LEO.

So a police detective? I don’t really see how renaming police detectives “Investigator” or some similar name shuffling changes or resolves anything. Unless you’re suggesting farming these tasks out to the private sector. I guess towns could contract with PIs or a private detective agency, but I find it hard to believe such a privatized agency would be any better than sworn LEOs in terms of corruption, brutality, etc.

The comparison with a fire marshal is instructive; according to Wikipedia “Fire marshals may be sworn law-enforcement officers and are often experienced firefighters.” In other words, just like in the case of police detectives, it’s seen as a good thing for them to have experience and authority.

> There's no need for police to be first-responders in purely medical situations. It's unfair to expect that police also take up the burden of medical care. While we are at it, it's also silly that the fire department responds to non-fire medical incidents in their big ass fire truck. Doing so compromises their abilities to handle situations where their expertise is explicitly required.

I don’t think acting as EMTs is a big part of police calls. As you note, the FD often responds to such purely medical incidents as they are better trained and have better resources.

I agree that the use of SWAT teams for small towns should be looked at. In my opinion, these specially trained officers should be part of state police or big cities only. State police could support local PDs if needed.

In general, your post is about some types of police reform.

It doesn’t interact with the post I originally responded to, which posited that “police” are “very much not necessary” in modern America.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure there’s truth to it, but there are 800k police officers in the US. Are you ready to condemn the entire profession because of a handful of bad experiences?

Imagine a handcuffed, nondangerous, nonviolent person is literally murdered by strangulation by a cop, and three cops stand right there watching and do nothing and don't even appear to be fazed by what's going on. If I was the cop watching, I would kick that asshole in the face and try to stop him. I'm sure if you asked 99% of normal people they would agree. But three cops literally watched and did nothing. Many cops…

> every single American cop

based on what?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, but they've had many years in which to deliver and have manifestly failed to do so. Reform should of course be the first recourse when you discover a problem, I don't bulldoze my house if if I discover a leaky pipe or a crack in the wall. If you know there are massive persistent problems and you keep saying 'now's not the time, let's reform this slowly and carefully' then at a certain point you're just procra…

> Indeed, but they've had many years in which to deliver and have manifestly failed to do so This is highly dependent on locality. I don't claim to follow broader national trends, but certainly things in the Bay Area have improved significantly in the last 2 decades. e.g. SJPD has seen encouraging reductions in use of force over the last five years ( https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/29/as-police-decry-georg... )

That's nice, but then why did San Jose police mount such a violent response at the demonstration last week, with one officers running around yelling things like 'let's get this motherfucker' and 'shut up bitch'? When called on to respond as a department they defaulted to gassing protesters and then citing the violent response as a post-facto justification for doing so.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/31/lets-get-this-motherf...

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#218
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. Do you believe that by oversimplifying the conversation you're going to actually solve problems? Do you think it's helpful? Or is the problem less worthy than venting your frustrations (and in the latter case, are the frustrations legitimate or simply a product of the aforementioned media misinformation)?

This conversation isn't going to solve the problem (but that is a cop-out). I think the metaphor though hyperbolic was a bit germane: I too have a lot of problems with media coverage in general. But the reason why it's covered a lot more is because it's often super egregious. So it's oversimplifying to not consider the impact to the community (especially given the long historical context of racial oppression). My fru…

> But the reason why it's covered a lot more is because it's often super egregious.

Daniel Shaver had no criminal history, he was unarmed in his own hotel room on his hands and knees begging for his life when a police officer shot him five times.

Tim Timpa was pinned to the ground with at least one officer kneeling on his back while he struggled to breath, begging police officers to get off of him, saying they were going to kill him. He begged more than 30 times over the course of 14 minutes. The police officers joked about killing him even after he was unconscious and possibly even after he had died.

Justine Damond was a 40 year old Australian-American woman who called the police to report a possible sexual assault in the alley near her home. She was unarmed and barefoot as she approached the police after they swept the alley in their squad car when they shot her in the chest.

I don't see how these killings are less egregious than those that the media do report on. Moreover, there are also patently fraudulent media reports of racism, such as the Covington Catholic affair that are designed to get the nation in a race frenzy even if it means sending an angry mob after innocent children. I don't think "concern for the community" is motivating the media. Minority communities' anxiety is the result of--not the cause for--the media's fear mongering.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#219
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This principle incriminates the protesters just as much. There is widespread rationalization and support for the "few bad apples" perpetrating violence/looting/burning/rioting. There is very little condemnation. Lots of quoting MLK Jr. "rioting is the voice of the unheard" and yet MLK Jr. certainly did not practice or advocate violence. If the protesters can't regulate their own bad apples then how can they judge pol…

> This principle incriminates the protesters just as much. Yeah but you know, one group _took oath to protect and serve_ and the other didn't. It's like when Trump say some racist shit VS when your drunk uncle says the same thing, you can't put both sides to the same standards. Everybody condemn rioters, but for some reasons a lot of people, including the president and many officials, manage to rationalise police bru…

"This is the kind of thoughts I had when I was 15, I don't even know what to reply to that anymore."

And this is the kind of insult I used until I was 12. Either address the argument or don't. Bless us lesser beings with your wisdom.

"Don't you have the balls to attach your speech to your semi public internet presence"

Pretty easy if all of your opinions are borrowed from others.

If you actually consider every issue for yourself then you're going to need to have discussions/disagreements.

And in modern "leftist" culture it's absolutely not permitted to disagree on certain issues. There is a correct way of thinking and any deviation makes you an enemy. You're either onboard wholesale for everything (making you a second class "ally" if you're out of the relevant racial/gender group) or an enemy.

I want to live in a good world as much as anyone. I have no belief in the superiority of any race or sex. I absolutely would have supported MLK Jr. and I'm fairly certain of this because my parents did and I have a lot in common with them.

And yet I find myself dismayed by the whacky thinking that has infected part of American culture. There is a new world in which racism isn't racism if it's aimed at certain racial groups and violence isn't violence if it's against police or certain racial groups. Permanently destroying people's lives is okay now too, as long as they made some kind of mistake related to a hot issue.

This stuff is insane and totally counter productive. The majority of people are too smart and good to buy into this perverted worldview. Most people are never going to come around to the worldview where it's not-so-bad to kill a police officer that is responding to a break in.

What we should hope to see is a separation process, where the extremist crazy people and ideas are abandoned.

There seems to be a hostage/hijacking situation, where the majority are being cowed/controlled by the extremists, dooming the movements to failure.

An enemy of racial equality couldn't organize better sabotage than what the people involved are seemingly doing on their own.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you don’t actually think the real world works this way. Police are not a ’tool’ in a vacuum, but rather a massively complex interconnected system influenced by thousands of different external forces. Changing the ’rules’ for them would do nothing.

So you say, but you have no evidence reform is impossible. Whereas nations with police forces not built like authoritarian staatspolizei have lower uses of force, violence, and abuse. According to HN, everything is impossible. In reality? Going to space didn't have to cost a billion a launch, electric cars weren't impossible, and we can have fibre internet. For every one of these things, the HN gestalt is that "they'…

You're the one who needs to prove that literally the only change needed in turning America into a peaceful nation is reforming the police code. I thought you guys had - just as examples off the top of my head - nationwide gun, drug and mental health "epidemics", but I guess those are completely moot now.
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