Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#151

Post by usaar333 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #127

usaar333 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone can be quite concerned by police violence and brutality, but still view them as essential for a stable society. (The advocates of reforming police organizations go in this bucket)

Indeed, but they've had many years in which to deliver and have manifestly failed to do so. Reform should of course be the first recourse when you discover a problem, I don't bulldoze my house if if I discover a leaky pipe or a crack in the wall. If you know there are massive persistent problems and you keep saying 'now's not the time, let's reform this slowly and carefully' then at a certain point you're just procra…

> Indeed, but they've had many years in which to deliver and have manifestly failed to do so

This is highly dependent on locality. I don't claim to follow broader national trends, but certainly things in the Bay Area have improved significantly in the last 2 decades.

e.g. SJPD has seen encouraging reductions in use of force over the last five years (https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/05/29/as-police-decry-georg...)

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#152

Post by blueboo » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #114

nkozyra wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is a great deal of sentiment that the approaches used in the United States are excessively militarized, racially unjust and insufficiently transparent. Using a problematic customer like that as a marketing highlight is just not a great idea.

What's the alternative though? Pretending that if you needed protection due to crime coming your way/your family's way... you wouldn't call 911? I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. How many cops are there in America? Ok, some of them aren't perfect. They are racist/dicks/thirsty for power. Why does this mean as a citizen I should feel less safe because we want…

> Am I missing something?

Yes, you are. Police are the solution for mental health. Police are the solution for roving dogs. Police are the solution for kids out of school. Police are the solution for drug addiction.

The alternative is to defund the massive chunk of budgets that go to police and invest in commmunity support, from medicalised addiction treatment to educational opportunity to mental health support.

Or, we could let these problems continue to fester because people in wanton and willful ignorance embrace your false dichotomy and legislate on the assumption that anything but police with (even more) laser sights and (even more) armor played APCs is a commitment to Mad Max.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#153

Post by bradly » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #95

bradly wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How you get any of those things by demonizing the police and making it a left-vs-right political issue is beyond me. If not this way the, how do you get it? It's been hundreds of years. The U.S. is not immune to revolutions and revolutions have changed corrupt states for a very long time.

Study other countries which have less police violence? Incorporate more community involvement? Etc. The idea that society doesn't need some sort of police force is so hilariously naive, I am in disbelief that serious people are suggesting it. Clearly they are from an extremely privileged background and never had to deal with living in poor areas. The police absolutely need reform, but to pretend that they're more of…

I am more afraid of a police department that has no legal accountability than I am of a criminal.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#154

Post by rrmm » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #146

rrmm wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people are just really, really angry at this moment in time due to the long history of injustices and numerous examples in the past few days. Nuance is real hard to do under these circumstances.

It's not so hard if the media didn't cherry pick examples for the purpose of enraging Americans. There's probably a lot to be legitimately upset about, but blacks are killed by police less frequently than victim-reported crime statistics predict. If the media gave proportional attention to white victims like Tony Timpa or Daniel Shaver, it wouldn't feel so much like police are targeting black citizens. Maybe we would…

Yeah but it'd be even easier to just not kill so many black people for what often appears to be very little reason. The whole thing would solve itself.

If a few police started stepping on babies and killing them for sport, making sure that all the other victims of police got 'equal-time' isn't going to be winner.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#155

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

javagram wrote: post #131

revscat wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the abstract police are necessary. In today’s America, with the police as they actually exist today, they are very much not necessary, and are a drain on public safety, social order, and personal liberty.

That doesn’t make sense. There are 300 million guns in America and plenty of crime happens every year. It’s true crime is down from the historical highs of the 70s and 80s, but there are very much still murders and thefts that need to be investigated and punished. The reality is if police were abolished we’d go back to the bad old days of private detective agencies being used for security. Would you rather have some…

[deleted]

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#156

Post by rrmm » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

rrmm wrote: post #154

throwaway894345 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so hard if the media didn't cherry pick examples for the purpose of enraging Americans. There's probably a lot to be legitimately upset about, but blacks are killed by police less frequently than victim-reported crime statistics predict. If the media gave proportional attention to white victims like Tony Timpa or Daniel Shaver, it wouldn't feel so much like police are targeting black citizens. Maybe we would…

Yeah but it'd be even easier to just not kill so many black people for what often appears to be very little reason. The whole thing would solve itself. If a few police started stepping on babies and killing them for sport, making sure that all the other victims of police got 'equal-time' isn't going to be winner.

woops there goes the nuance again :D

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#157

Post by anotheracct_ » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #80

4636760295 wrote: post #41

One way techies can affect change is to not do business with the government, particularly law enforcement and military. However, this won't happen, because at the end of the day the only thing people actually care about is money.

> the only thing people actually care about is money Although I do care about money, I also support my government and my local police force, and would be happy and proud if my work could be used to make their efforts more efficient as well as more open, transparent, and fair. I don't agree with everything my government does, and I believe that there are bad cops that need to be corrected, but don't presume to speak f…

I'll speak for you here. Fuck you.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#158

Post by jeffdavis » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

designdesign wrote: post #121

jeffdavis wrote: post #63

Are we saying that: (a) police are a net good, but slack is aiding/encouraging particular bad behaviors; or (b) police are a net bad and we should just deny them anything that enables them to do their jobs; or (c) police are a net good, but it's bad PR to associate with them

B and C probably both fit - police aren't inherently a net bad, but the policing system in america produces too many bad outcomes to lend blanket support to; it's arguably unethical to profit from such a problematic body of work.

This is what I don't get: saying they are theoretically good but problematic (without necessarily saying "police are a net bad"), and then saying it's unethical to do business with them for routine products.

If there is logic there, it's very subtle and I'm not getting it. Can you elaborate or compare it to a precedent?

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#159

Post by ceilingcorner » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #142

ceilingcorner wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the amount of police violence is less today than say, the early 1900s, when outright lynching was practically sponsored by the police? You deny that there has been any progress?

Society as a whole has changed and I'd argue police have changed less than the rest of society. Given the videos from the last few days it's clear that the police see themselves as immune to consequences even in the age of social media, cell phone cameras and widespread public opposition.

Sure, I agree to that absolutely. But how you get from "the police needs radical reform" to "we don't need police, abolish them" is a mystery to me.

Re: Slack Removed a Blog Post Showing How Police Use Its Tech

#160

Post by wvenable » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

meowface wrote: post #141

wvenable wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like this entire movement is really taking away credit from the "ok" and "good" cops. I feel the response to this movement shows that there are fewer good cops that anyone would have expected. They protect their own at the cost of citizens they should be protecting. They lie. They cheat. They assault and murder without consequence. > Even if there were 1,000 police brutality related deaths a year (there aren…

>I feel the response to this movement shows that there are fewer good cops that anyone would have expected. What leads you to believe this at an empirical level, though? The inciting incident of course sadly shows yet another example of detestable police and policing, and the reaction shows additional instances of cruel and overly aggressive policing (arresting and assaulting peaceful protesters and reporters in some…

> What leads you to believe this at an empirical level, though?

The huge number of officers that surrounded Derek Chauvin's house, for example.

https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/officers-protect-home-of-derek...

The video is actually just creepy. But that's empirical evidence that you can verify by observation of said video.

> How can you, I, or anyone know any of the true statistics?

We actually know that the US ranks as high as many 3rd world countries when looking at the murder of black people by police. Even the murder of white people is staggeringly high compared to other western countries. The statistics are there.

> Since we can't, the most important thing is to try to improve and fix the system and the systemic issues as much as possible, and to try to decrease the odds of hiring shitty cops and increase the odds that shitty cops will be quickly identified, removed, and, if appropriate, prosecuted.

I agree. That's actually what we all want. And that's not happening now.