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Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

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Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#201

Post by lucasyvas »

kirubakaran wrote: post #145
an_d_rew wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Young dev from large corp: "Sigh, ok, just saying in 2 years from now we wont be in a good spot". Except in my experience it’s not two years , it’s two months . And I can set up two micro instances with terraform in less than an hour. So soon you’re burning your three months of runway with development at 20-50% efficiency, and have no ability to pivot, if needed, because your infrastructure is rigid and hardcoded.…

I agree. While I'm a big proponent of "as simple as possible", often when people say "x is overkill", they mean "I don't know x" (where x != k8s of course).

I think this is 100% true. I've never used the term overkill personally.

If I don't know something, I simply say I don't know. And if I do, I always position the trade off of the choice relatively and weigh it.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#202

Post by whateveracct »

You have to be able to sell the value-add of all those new processes and justify their very real costs. Take ownership of things you want to change and make it as easy as possible for others to follow. The right thing should also be as easy as possible. Lots of fixed costs to pay along the way!

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#203

Post by mondoshawan »

pletsch wrote: post #113
darkerside wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any situation under which leadership shouldn't buy in to exactly what tech wants to do?

Does a captain of a ship do exactly what his crew wants all the time? No, because they're steering a ship and sometimes they have to make moves that not everyone will agree with.

Erm... That's not how sailing works. Yes, the Captain needs buy-in all the time, since they are ultimately responsible for the ship and crew both in the eyes of the law and survival wise. Also, most of the time the crew is at the helm.

Source: I'm a trained sailor.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#205

Post by OJFord »

kirubakaran wrote: post #145
an_d_rew wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Young dev from large corp: "Sigh, ok, just saying in 2 years from now we wont be in a good spot". Except in my experience it’s not two years , it’s two months . And I can set up two micro instances with terraform in less than an hour. So soon you’re burning your three months of runway with development at 20-50% efficiency, and have no ability to pivot, if needed, because your infrastructure is rigid and hardcoded.…

I agree. While I'm a big proponent of "as simple as possible", often when people say "x is overkill", they mean "I don't know x" (where x != k8s of course).

Do you know k8s?

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#206

Post by kodablah »

poutrathor wrote: post #85

The Joel Test : https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/08/09/the-joel-test-12-s... * The Joel Test Do you use source control? Can you make a build in one step? Do you make daily builds? Do you have a bug database? Do you fix bugs before writing new code? Do you have an up-to-date schedule? Do you have a spec? Do programmers have quiet working conditions? Do you use the best tools money can buy? Do you have testers? Do n…

Unfortunately this test lets absurdly low quality code pass. While code quality can be subjective on the margins, general poor quality code is obvious to most.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#207

Post by danjac »

danpalmer wrote: post #91
ransom1538 wrote: post #56

Me as a manager at a startup: "Look, we have 5 months of runway. Does that make sense?" Young dev from large corp: "Yes. But if you don't use Terraform we wont be able to see our infrastructure changes over time. We don't even have a proper code review process." Me as a manager at a startup: "We have two micro instances. Do not install Terraform. Finish the import prototype... now." Young dev from large corp: "Sigh,…

This is why it's important that early team members are experienced engineers. They know which corners should be cut today to get the prototype out, and which shouldn't because they'll take 30 mins to do "properly" and save a day of work before the runway is even up. I work in a small company that has all the things the author mentioned and that can work quickly as a result. Almost none of it comes from "we'll do it t…

Experienced engineers are hard to get though, unless they are founders themselves. Early-stage startups tend to rely on the cheapest engineers they can find, and only hire more experienced devs when they've accumulated a pile of technical debt and poor decisions.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#208

Post by frellus »

Your larger company built up those things over time, but likely with management support and pushing and enough of it built into the culture that everyone realized the value.

In your smaller company these things need to be done, and you need to be a champion of them. Pick your battles, but don't assume you can win every one at the same time. Pick the one most important to you or would have the most impact, champion it, and lead. You've seen nirvana, now you might just have to lead people to the promised land.

Just don't be one of those people who are like, "When I worked at ($current_company - 1) everything was much better than here. No one here gets it." Be the solution.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#209

Post by yowlingcat »

ransom1538 wrote: post #56

Me as a manager at a startup: "Look, we have 5 months of runway. Does that make sense?" Young dev from large corp: "Yes. But if you don't use Terraform we wont be able to see our infrastructure changes over time. We don't even have a proper code review process." Me as a manager at a startup: "We have two micro instances. Do not install Terraform. Finish the import prototype... now." Young dev from large corp: "Sigh,…

I am not convinced that you are competent enough to be an engineering manager at a big company with oversight from an experienced manager, nevermind at a startup. You've revealed a cascading set of failures here that are 100% your responsibility and then have the audacity to caricaturize your well intentioned junior engineer:

1) Having 5 months of runway is an existential problem that your CEO's fundraising should have addressed 7-12 months ago

2) Lacking a proper code review process ensures that you'll pay pounds of prevention long term instead of ounces of prevention, which over the long term is not a frugal usage of your already scarce engineering resources

3) Your senior engineers should be having the conversation with your junior engineers about the tradeoffs of heavier vs lighter forms of code review and CI process. Unless...

4) You hired a junior engineer as your early or first employee without a senior engineer and are unwilling to do the necessary work mentoring them yourself

You are responsible for each of these failure modes. Who made the decisions to get the company to a place where it only has 5 months left of cash? Who made the decision as a startup manager to let other managers take it there? Who made the choice to hire the junior engineer? Who made the decision to forgo proper code review standards?

It sounds like your junior engineer has a sense that they are on a sinking ship. Maybe they're right. You're one of the captains. Turn it around, or cut your losses and learn from your mistakes. Saying this as someone who has been a startup manager, I think it is a profound breach of the duty of leadership to not do so, which is what it sounds like you are doing right now.

EDIT: In case you need some pointers or some food for thought, I think that another HN thread that's also on the front page could be a great place to start:

Remember that management is not the same as IC work at a higher seniority. It is a fundamentally different vocation. You really need to internalize that to be effective and it is tricky.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23427110

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23429785

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#210

Post by blub »

ransom1538 wrote: post #56

Me as a manager at a startup: "Look, we have 5 months of runway. Does that make sense?" Young dev from large corp: "Yes. But if you don't use Terraform we wont be able to see our infrastructure changes over time. We don't even have a proper code review process." Me as a manager at a startup: "We have two micro instances. Do not install Terraform. Finish the import prototype... now." Young dev from large corp: "Sigh,…

If that team can't even do code review and they're pushing to production as OP said, maybe the startup should proactively close shop and everyone should go back to something they're competent at, like growing potatoes.
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