Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#261

Post by pmontra » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:47 PM UTC

DangerousPie wrote: post #91

ahartmetz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corona app doesn't need to be a huge contract. But SAP and T-Systems can sure waste a huge amount of time and charge a huge amount of money for it.

Developing a tool to be used by 80 million people to help fight a global pandemic under big time pressure is not a huge contract?

The Italian app is on GitHub. You can check the size of the project.

The iOS app has 3 main contributors https://github.com/immuni-app/immuni-app-ios/graphs/contribu...

The Android app has one with 50+% of commit https://github.com/immuni-app/immuni-app-android/graphs/cont...

Then there are several backend. All considered it's not a small project but not a large one.

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#262

Post by jialutu » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:50 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #230

9q9 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of innovation in semiconductors, should also learn from the success of China, South Korea, Taiwan!

Definitely, I didn't mention them only because I'm more familiar with the culture of the US (although indirectly). One thing we should certainly learn from China (and I guess other Asian cultures) is to copy first, and only when good at it start innovating. It takes a lot of humbleness and pragmatism over pride. And it works.

That is literally how you innovate! What a lot of people are unaware of is that Europeans had been copying and stealing Chinese secrets for over a millenia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_of_silkworm_eggs_int...

https://www.chinese-antique-porcelain.com/european-porcelain...

The US have a history of stealing tech secrets from the British:

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-na...

Hell, even the name America for which we give to the United States today was stolen since America was originally given to "Latin America" named after Amerigo who had only set foot in Latin America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci

I was also astounded when I found out how much US brands actually copy each other. So really, there is no shame in copying from others first before innovating, because that's what essentially learning is all about right? I mean we are constantly standing on the shoulder of giants, but for some reason, for certain sectors, we tend to lock out that process.

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#263

Post by Udik » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:54 PM UTC

Pedrit0 wrote: post #209

Europe has to start from somewhere in a market currently dominated by the US and the Chinese... This project may look like a joke for people in the Silicon Valley but everything we do in Europe looks like a joke for Americans. They laugh at the EU, at our spaceship program, at our industry, at our techs... Whatever we do they say we are old and finished. OK have good times laughing. Meanwhile we go on progressing. Di…

> Europe has to start from somewhere in a market currently dominated by the US and the Chinese...

Yes, and it has to start by copying them. Copying to the letter, like following a recipe, humbly. That's how absolute beginners learn. Not by proclaiming absurd moonshots (by the way, it's "France and Germany", as usual, not the EU) and insisting that we'll build something different, new and innovative and blah blah. Just copy: it will force us to do the things we don't want to do, it will go against our values and culture. Which are probably what's holding us back now.

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#264

Post by viraptor » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:55 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #237

heipei wrote: post #164

As a German who's been exclusively working in the US tech space for the past few years, there's so many anecdotes that come to mind to highlight how far behind the old world is, both in tech as in spirit: - Article about Gaia-X in major German newspaper FAZ explained that on AWS you can spin up your own infrastructure, "sometimes even without talking to anyone from sales", from your home! - When I tried to read or wa…

The talent is there, the money could be there if Europeans governments take it seriously, so why not? What's stopping EU from building an AWS equivalent? It's not rocket science. If Europe could come up with companies like ASML which are at the top of chip engineering, they can definitely build software infrastructure. Some of your points ring true but A) What used to be doesn't mean it will always be B) U.S has it's…

> What's stopping EU from building an AWS equivalent?

Years of experience running their own massive platform before entering the market of renting those services to others?

> they can definitely build software

So can OVH and Rackspace. So why would this project take off better than those established companies?

Don't get me wrong, I'll be cheering this to succeed, but how is this effort different?

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#265

Post by bergstromm466 » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:55 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #239

heipei wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, and I'm glad I started by saying that I'm German because lots of smaller European countries run circles around us in terms of tech adoption. I don't underestimate the value of quality of life, and I don't blame anyone who knowingly works for a stable, "boring", old-school German company which has been the world-leader in its niche for the past 100 years. But I think many people here are not aware that t…

There's a lot of criticism of the US/VC model, sure it brought tremendous success stories but it's not clear if the model actually works.

According to some: "It works great!" Thanks to Intellectual-Property-Monopoly Valley the US government has access to all computers all over the world (Intel ME etc.), as well as backdoor access into Google, Facebook etc. [1] [2] [3]. And Palantir works to 'support Homeland security'.

[1] https://books.google.nl/books?id=9aamDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT142&dq=%E...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants...

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/11/crypto-ag-ci...

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#266

Post by simias » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:56 PM UTC

touisteur wrote: post #241

simias wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that these efforts have been very hit or miss but on the other hand... What should they do instead? Just give up and accept that we're going to simply be technological vassals to America? Or should Macron and Merkel learn Javascript and take the matter into their own hands? We could've gone the Chinese way and just close the door to American companies, effectively forcing the local populace to use home-grown…

Listening to French entrepreneurs, the usual suspects (labor laws, taxes...) are not so much of a problem. They all seem to rally around an kafkaesque bureaucratic nightmare of interacting with anything state-related... Especially orgs collecting payroll taxes... The stories I see, where you get nailed huge fines every year, for small nitpicky details. They all talk of nightmares where some admin comes and destroy th…

I hear stories like this often, I can believe there's a problem here. It is true that we like red tape over here.

That being said the problem with these testimonies is that you'll often hear people complain when something go wrong but nobody is going to tell you how great the French tax system is when it plays in their favor. It's... whatever the opposite of survivor bias is. People also like to deflect the blame away from them when their companies go under. When you don't have COVID-19 you have to find something else.

But I'm sure that there are things that can be improved regardless, I just wish we were more constructive about it instead of just throwing the whole system in the garbage and lighting another cigarette while looking pensively at empty space Camus-style.

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#267

Post by f6v » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #249

thecleaner wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech salaries in Europe really are a joke. Even American companies don't pay well here because why would they, the market itself sucks. Combine that with easy immigration to US for Europeans and good affordable education it seems unlikely that talented people would choose to stay here. Part of the reason is the old money in this ecosystem. The problem with digitization in Germany specifically is that our paperwork is…

They are "a joke" because you're comparing them to the U.S. If you compared them to Japan / Australia / Canada let alone to the developing world they are great. Immigration to the U.S never was and probably never will be easy and the education there isn't affordable. Also, the work culture would be quite a shock for an European. Some people will always try to gain a "better future" , I don't see big numbers leaving G…

It's funny that when Europe is mentioned, many people think "Germany". Ask Italians about their tech salaries, I've been told people are happy with 2.5k as a senior developer there...

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#268

Post by jlangenauer » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:57 PM UTC

thecleaner wrote: post #184

heipei wrote: post #164

As a German who's been exclusively working in the US tech space for the past few years, there's so many anecdotes that come to mind to highlight how far behind the old world is, both in tech as in spirit: - Article about Gaia-X in major German newspaper FAZ explained that on AWS you can spin up your own infrastructure, "sometimes even without talking to anyone from sales", from your home! - When I tried to read or wa…

Tech salaries in Europe really are a joke. Even American companies don't pay well here because why would they, the market itself sucks. Combine that with easy immigration to US for Europeans and good affordable education it seems unlikely that talented people would choose to stay here. Part of the reason is the old money in this ecosystem. The problem with digitization in Germany specifically is that our paperwork is…

Despite what you may think, there isn't some nefarious conspiracy keeping tech salaries low in Europe. It's that this is where the market is, an equilibrium between supply and demand for engineers.

It's precisely the same reason that salaries in certain US markets are so high: FAANG don't pay high salaries because they have fundamentally decided that engineers should be paid X amount, nor because someone has read Marx and wants to give engineers more of the value they create. It's because demand has exceeded supply for engineers in those markets, and that has driven up the equilibrium price. I should also point out that the median salary for engineers outside the NY and the Bay Area is something like $100k, not the stratospheric packages often discussed here as though they were normal rather than exceptional.

(I've not noticed too much of a love of paperwork here in Germany, but I could certainly see how the stereotype was formed)

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#269

Post by jlangenauer » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 12:59 PM UTC

cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #258

joelbluminator wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are "a joke" because you're comparing them to the U.S. If you compared them to Japan / Australia / Canada let alone to the developing world they are great. Immigration to the U.S never was and probably never will be easy and the education there isn't affordable. Also, the work culture would be quite a shock for an European. Some people will always try to gain a "better future" , I don't see big numbers leaving G…

>If you compared them to Japan / Australia / Canada Can't speak for Japan, but the tech salaries in the big cities in Australia and Canada are far more competitive than those in Europe. The European tech industry is an absolute joke overall, and I say this as a European. It would take an utterly massive overhaul to correct without relying on outright Chinese-style protectionism, and as more companies move remote and…

Be careful what you wish for: if we move towards a genuine globally-integrated tech market, where work can be done from anywhere, then companies might start asking the complementary question: "why would I, as a company, pay US-level (or even EU-level) salaries when I could hire someone from Russia or India or the Phillippines for much cheaper?"

That particular knife cuts both ways.

Re: Germany, France launch Gaia-X platform in bid for ‘tech sovereignty’

#270

Post by f6v » Fri, Jun 05, 2020, 1:00 PM UTC

gspr wrote: post #181

heipei wrote: post #164

As a German who's been exclusively working in the US tech space for the past few years, there's so many anecdotes that come to mind to highlight how far behind the old world is, both in tech as in spirit: - Article about Gaia-X in major German newspaper FAZ explained that on AWS you can spin up your own infrastructure, "sometimes even without talking to anyone from sales", from your home! - When I tried to read or wa…

I think the two first points are more specific to Germany than to the old world as a whole. Up here in Scandinavia, we often laugh at how much Germans interact with humans, send letters and faxes, and make phonecalls in their business lives. They are woefully far behind. From what I understand the same is true for the south. While I agree with the basic premise of the last point too I think you maybe underestimate th…

Milage varies in Europe. In Germany, opening a bank account "over internet" means sending paper letters back and forth, while in Belgium I didn't have to sign or send anything by post.