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Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

news.ycombinator.com

21–30 of 306 posts

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#21
The standards you've described are totally reasonable! This sounds like an amazing opportunity for you to have a really wide impact and a great chance for the company to level up their game using your experience. I'm sure you've thought about this already but it doesn't have to be a "fight" - in many cases what people need is some appealing reasons, e.g. describing how their world would be much more amazing if they implemented X, Y and Z. Depending on the size and stage of your company it might actually make sense to do it in a 'quick & dirty' way (e.g. dominating the market might be more important at an early stage than doing it in a sustainable way) but even then they (tech decision makers) should be aware of the tradeoffs and if they are, they should be communicating the reasons to the whole company.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#22
My perspective is that quality is a process and a project rather than just a goal or a fixed property of a team. This new team is like a project that's barely begun and you're coming off a project that was in maintenance mode.

So like any project it works best if you do one thing at a time and build up some momentum. You can't fix everything at once.

See if you can get people to buy in to just getting the indentation consistent (my favorite place to start), or preventing the development software from touching the production database.

Get one win, give it a little time, and then go for another pass. Meanwhile set an example in your own contributions. It is very possible to improve things but it takes patience, planning how to deal with setbacks, flexibility, and recognizing what the real priorities of the company are and what quality means in context.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#23
Your standards are reasonable. However, what's missing in a lot of comments is a good process for assessing what the human and business factors that led to where the company is now, and how to approach changing it. This is natural as most people here are techies first, but it could lead to setting you up for a bad experience.

There are very limited conditions, under which making this a blame exercise would be the right answer.

There are also business conditions, under which this situation is the best that the business could have achieved by now. Eg, if other things needed to be higher priority for the viability of the business. Having said that, once you are in such a situation it is difficult to get out of it, and hence such situations tend to linger for much longer than any justification.

What you probably need to do now is find out how much appetite there is to change, and what the blockers are.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#24
post #3

You can try and softly push towards better practices but if it's an organisational issue you will likely fail. Your standards are not unreasonable so it might pay to find a better company

I think you just don't want to work with people who accept such state of affairs, so no point trying.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#25
Consensus that these processes are really the best way to do things is relatively recent, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a lot of shops that haven’t yet retooled to them.

Continuous integration was only proposed as a concept 30 years ago, and was a relatively fringe theory for another decade at least. Automated deployment followed a similar path, but about a decade later. Manual acceptance tests, in particular, remained quite common a decade ago even at the big tech giants.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#27
To counter the flood of 'you sound reasonable', I think you are probably being unreasonable.

The hint is "spaghetti code".

What might have happened is you started slagging off everyone's code as soon as you've come in and now you're plucking at straws to justify it as you're getting ostracized.

Also, objectively speaking, how can writing MORE code and spending MORE time talking to people be faster? Your argument makes no sense. Tests and reviews are a massive drag on development, also more code means more bugs. That we know.

It would take years to get full test coverage and somehow you think that makes everyone inherently faster?

Also, ask yourself this, how much money have they lost so far by doing this? Is it perchance $0? Zero downtime? As you've not listed a single actual COST of what they're doing.

While direct to prod/connect to prod db is nuts and not normal, you also haven't given the context of who did that and why they did that. Is there really no staging server? No Dev branch?

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#28
Your standards seem fine. But for a lot of companies the initial techies set the approach and a lot of people find the thoight of these practices stifling. Not necessarily in practice but it can sound very heavy. I'm self-taught and I have a fairly sizeable mismatch with enterprise OOP-focused engineers when it comes to testing, overhead and process.

I think it's hard for people to appreciate thw other side of these argumenta without having lives through some consequences. I firmly believe in automation and testing. I believe tests must be pragmatic to not be overbearing. I mostly believe in code review for teaching. The research covered in the book Accelerate (subtitle something something devops) made a strong case against code review and change control for most software development.

So yeah, your standards sound reasonable, if maybe a bit much for my taste in some aspects but I know lots of shops that wouldn't be anywhere near. And this is a skillset and know-how you can provide. Hope that's a useful perspective.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#29
This looks like a cultural problem where the top brass either believe in strong-arming developers or aren't aware about the dreadful impact of not following processes (code review etc.)

Your expectations are perfectly reasonable. I think you should consider explaining to everyone (including non-developers) how bad things can go if these practices continue.

Re: Ask HN: Are my expectations on code quality and professionalism too high?

#30
Your expectations as described are not high. CI/CD is a bare minimum unless you're working at one of those jobs where tech is just not a main concern. I've worked at some places like that, while the job was utterly chill and relaxed, you don't grow professionally. If the company tanks, you're toast.

That's all I have to say about this: If the company tanks and you forget about good practices, you're toast.

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