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Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

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Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#231

Post by heavyset_go »

jboog wrote: post #133
mnm1 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alumni have been furious for years now, this isn't helping. This is why I stopped all the donations to my alma mater. Why should I donate to an institution whose tuition has risen 300% over the last 15 years? If they wanted donations, they shouldn't have taught us about inflation then because now we can see them for the predatory scumbags they really are. And this increase in cost doesn't even pay for professors. T…

I agree with the thrust of your argument but my flagship state university is still affordable for anyone. It's not cheap, but in state tuition even if you pay sticker isn't so high you can't pay it off in a reasonable amount of time (in state tuition is ~$9k). It's a great university too (UNC) so part of the way they keep tuition for in state cheap is out of state students pay almost as much as private school tuition…

In-state tuition for public schools has been rising to unjustifiable levels, too, just not at the rate of private schools.

I have relatives that were able to pay for their tuition with part-time jobs in college. Today, I'd have to take out a small mortgage just for a liberal arts degree.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#232

Post by WalterBright »

stephen_cagle wrote: post #213
WalterBright wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why companies grow to a certain point, and then start failing.

Fortunately, in the United States we have figured out how to avoid failure by continuously bailing out companies that get too large. So we fixed that.

The bankruptcy laws changed to allow bankrupt companies to continue operating and "emerge" from bankruptcy. I don't think this is an improvement.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#233

Post by pbhjpbhj »

chrisseaton wrote: post #193
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In UK the Open University is highly valued, and only (?) offers remote learning (and has for decades). Indeed it's recommended to put BA(Open), or whatever, by the uni as it's considered by some more valuable than an attendance based degree. This mirrors the writing of Oxon., for example, for an Oxford degree. It's surely about perception of employers.

> Indeed it's recommended to put BA(Open), or whatever, by the uni as it's considered by some more valuable than an attendance based degree. All unis do this BA (Cantab), BA (Bristoliensis), BA (Exon), etc. It’s nothing special for OU. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universities_in_the_United_K...

Have you seen those in the wild? I've only ever seen Oxon.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#234

Post by btilly »

bambataa wrote: post #183
btilly wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While in general I agree that there are too many administrators at many universities, this type of argument is ineffective without pointing out exactly which administrators. And I find that once you try to do that, no one agrees which administrators should be cut. Do you want to cut the administrators responsible for diversity and inclusion? Or the administrators responsible for tech transfer? Or the Dean of the Coll…

> For a start, let's cut any administrator that was not considered needed for the proper running of a university 30 years ago. What makes you so sure universities were sufficiently well-run 30 years ago? And what makes you so sure other people agree with you?

I was in university 30 years ago. It was sufficient to educate me.

Going from that point to this, the cost of university has more than tripled in real dollars. A significant portion of that change is increases in money spent to administrators. It seems absurd that anyone would think that the education received today is worth over triple the education received 30 years ago.

I know, as a parent, given the choice I would cheerfully prefer to pay for my kids to get the university experience that I received and have no debt than I would have them get stifling loans for the modern university experience and start their lives in debt. I know very few parents that disagree with me on that.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#235

Post by unishark »

touisteur wrote: post #226
jboog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is everyone acting like every school charges Ivy League prices? Most state schools are affordable. Mine is a top school and charges $9k a year in tuition for in state. You can get all of the social, in person experience at almost any state school. You might not get a job at Google or Mckinsey but you also won't take on 6 figure debt. The problem is everyone wants to go to the private/out of state schools with sky…

9k a year. Unimaginable for 18-years-old me. Thank god (i.e. the French taxpayer) that allowed me (poor, 2nd-gen immigrant, blue-collar background) to have an Sw Eng diploma for free. I would've been OK being forced working in France or for French companies for 10 years for this privilege. Tuition was 1000eur/year, and I always found this very low. Scholarships were needs-based and gave me 400eur/month. Tuition was w…

Bit late response here, but wanted to clear this up. Ironically people tend to think the US has a system only "for the rich" when in some ways it may be the most progressive. Wealthy families pay through the nose while the poor pay zero tuition. Meanwhile everyone reaps the benefits of such rich world-renowned schools.

If you can't pay tuition in the US you would probably receive grants to cover 100 percent of it. And as I noted elsewhere, scholarships for good students are everywhere. Schools compete ferociously for rankings and one way to raise the stats of the incoming class is to "buy" lots of smart students with scholarships.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#236

Post by touisteur »

unishark wrote: post #235
touisteur wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

9k a year. Unimaginable for 18-years-old me. Thank god (i.e. the French taxpayer) that allowed me (poor, 2nd-gen immigrant, blue-collar background) to have an Sw Eng diploma for free. I would've been OK being forced working in France or for French companies for 10 years for this privilege. Tuition was 1000eur/year, and I always found this very low. Scholarships were needs-based and gave me 400eur/month. Tuition was w…

Bit late response here, but wanted to clear this up. Ironically people tend to think the US has a system only "for the rich" when in some ways it may be the most progressive. Wealthy families pay through the nose while the poor pay zero tuition. Meanwhile everyone reaps the benefits of such rich world-renowned schools. If you can't pay tuition in the US you would probably receive grants to cover 100 percent of it. An…

Thanks for this feedback.

IIUC what you say, most of those scholarships and grants are for 'good' students, right? You need some kind of high GPA or over-average SAT results, right ?

Since I don't know much about the US system, I'm ready to believe my view is distorted :-) but then I'm not sure I understand the problem of student-debt ("next bubble to pop", etc.) in the US. I was debt-free at the start of my career thanks to the French taxpayer.

I hope what I brought since to the French society balances that, but I thought it very generous to trust me with a free education, 4000eur/year and a very-low-rent place on my own to try to get an engineering degree, especially as I was still a teenager when I started, and when so many go abroad... There's no downside of failing, I don't have to give the money back. The French taxpayer really wanted me to try and do this, with as little worry as possible about money and finding a night job, and as much focus they could afford for me. My room was clean and livable, common toilet/shower & kitchen were cleaned at least once a week. Internet was free (with huge bandwidth...). I'm sorry but some people found the whole thing shitty and cheap and 'not enough'... This was the last days of a great system.

Sorry for going on a tangent like this.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#237

Post by unishark »

touisteur wrote: post #236
unishark wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit late response here, but wanted to clear this up. Ironically people tend to think the US has a system only "for the rich" when in some ways it may be the most progressive. Wealthy families pay through the nose while the poor pay zero tuition. Meanwhile everyone reaps the benefits of such rich world-renowned schools. If you can't pay tuition in the US you would probably receive grants to cover 100 percent of it. An…

Thanks for this feedback. IIUC what you say, most of those scholarships and grants are for 'good' students, right? You need some kind of high GPA or over-average SAT results, right ? Since I don't know much about the US system, I'm ready to believe my view is distorted :-) but then I'm not sure I understand the problem of student-debt ("next bubble to pop", etc.) in the US. I was debt-free at the start of my career t…

"Scholarship" is used to mean merit-based kinds of grants essentially, so for good students. Whereas the word "Grant" used generally implies only the need-based versions. It's a bit confusing. There is a national system called "financial aid" where a family applies to the govt with their tax forms and their ability to pay is assessed. Then the govt offers grants and subsidized loans to cover costs. States will also supplement the grants with their own grants, and the school itself does too. Scholarships are just offered directly by the school based on some kind of competitive selection.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#238

Post by touisteur »

unishark wrote: post #237
touisteur wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for this feedback. IIUC what you say, most of those scholarships and grants are for 'good' students, right? You need some kind of high GPA or over-average SAT results, right ? Since I don't know much about the US system, I'm ready to believe my view is distorted :-) but then I'm not sure I understand the problem of student-debt ("next bubble to pop", etc.) in the US. I was debt-free at the start of my career t…

"Scholarship" is used to mean merit-based kinds of grants essentially, so for good students. Whereas the word "Grant" used generally implies only the need-based versions. It's a bit confusing. There is a national system called "financial aid" where a family applies to the govt with their tax forms and their ability to pay is assessed. Then the govt offers grants and subsidized loans to cover costs. States will also s…

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain to a foreign skeptic. I'll look into it a bit more, find stats on this.
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