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Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

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Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#411
post #10

So long as their speech remains legal, social media sites should not be the business of censoring elected officials. That is the job of voters and Congress. It’s too easy to walk down a slippery slope where suddenly these sites have to regulate in accordance with whatever is the popular opinion of the day.

Facebook is quite happy to censor speech. Facebook banned me for 3 days for commenting on a previous ban where I had said "white people suck" and "white people are savages", both for pictures contrasting white people protesting vs PoC and First Nation people protesting. Disclaimer: I am very white. I was not promoting hate.

Facebook's page on hate speech: https://www.facebook.com/communitystandards/hate_speech

I think that the standard I broke was attacking a protected class: "white people".

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of these is clearly not like the other, in multiple ways. You're at the very least misrepresenting why these people are being banned. Tax policy is not anywhere close the tweets at issue which often amount to terroristic threatening. If you started verbally abusing other customers in a grocery store, perhaps even implying you'll murder them, then yes, you'll be banned. To the rest of your comment, are you serious…

> You have a fundamental right to food, not to have your opinions transmitted by others At least in the US, it is the opposite. There isn't a constitutional amendment protecting your rights regarding food. But there is a constitutional right related to your rights regarding speech. Many people think that these rights regarding speech are pretty darn important. Possibly even the most important rights that a person can…

You can have a right to speech but not have a right for a private party to carry your speech this isn't contradictory.

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#413
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>social media sites should not be the business of censoring elected officials. That is the job of voters and Congress. What about Paul Nehlen, a political candidate who (before he was permabanned) frequently railed on Twitter against the "Jewish media" and mused about the "JQ", which stands for Jewish Question? Who called Jewish critics "shekels-for-hire" and used the phrase "The goyim know!" as an imitation of their…

Why not let a fool be a fool? Why hide what someone is? All that does is create mystique about him. "Social media is a not a public square where people can plant their soapbox, it is a set of privately owned servers where people can persist small amounts of data that comply with a set of rules. " Certainly that is how it started . But the de facto power of social media's censorship and dominance in discourse will eve…

During the rise of Hitler somebody should have done something. I think putting a disclaimer on someones speech is a pretty tame and justifiable answer to doing something.

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#414
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>social media sites should not be the business of censoring elected officials. That is the job of voters and Congress. What about Paul Nehlen, a political candidate who (before he was permabanned) frequently railed on Twitter against the "Jewish media" and mused about the "JQ", which stands for Jewish Question? Who called Jewish critics "shekels-for-hire" and used the phrase "The goyim know!" as an imitation of their…

> What about Paul Nehlen, a political candidate... If that despicable moron somehow got elected, I think there would be a public interest in keeping his statements available to the public. If for no other reason than to maintain the public record of him making those statements as an elected official. If President Trump told a journalist “when the looting starts, the shooting starts” and the journalist reported it, sh…

[deleted]

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#415
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're continuing the parking lot analogy, it's like there's an almost unending grid of parking lot after parking lot, and you can travel to any of them instantaneously and for free. Some parking lots have a lot of people, so you'd rather go there if you want to be heard, but nothing is stopping you from setting up shop in an empty lot, and nothing is stopping people from visiting your lot. Now, given that major so…

Thanks for the clarification. You're right, access to the internet at large is more or less egalitarian; having your voice heard (and not hidden), is not though, and therein lies the problem. If a tree falls on the forest, and no one is there to hear it, did it even make a noise? Also relevant is this very interesting research experiment conducted ~5 years ago on social media manipulation, in which they dubbed the te…

That's true, we used to think of it in terms of access, but I suppose now that anyone can figuratively start their own news network, the issue is who gatekeeps the directories rather than the access.

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#416
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>social media sites should not be the business of censoring elected officials. That is the job of voters and Congress. What about Paul Nehlen, a political candidate who (before he was permabanned) frequently railed on Twitter against the "Jewish media" and mused about the "JQ", which stands for Jewish Question? Who called Jewish critics "shekels-for-hire" and used the phrase "The goyim know!" as an imitation of their…

> What about Paul Nehlen, a political candidate... If that despicable moron somehow got elected, I think there would be a public interest in keeping his statements available to the public. If for no other reason than to maintain the public record of him making those statements as an elected official. If President Trump told a journalist “when the looting starts, the shooting starts” and the journalist reported it, sh…

Pruneyard Shopping Ctr. v. Robin

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/447/74/#tab-opin...

held that parties could collect signatures for their political activity on mall property due to a provision in the CA state constitution or more generally that a state constitution could offer more protections than federal law or the US constitution provides.

It found that it didn't represent a taking because passing out leaflets didn't substantially harm the mall.

It found that the political speech was unlikely to be confused with the malls and that they could publicly disclaim such association thus it wasn't compelled speech.

We can logically assume both of the above points are congruent with twitter so we can conclude that if CA or any other state provides a similar protection it ought to be applicable. What it notably did NOT say is that such speech on someone else's property was generally federally protected nor if I understand did it disclaim it.

The next question is does CA law make banning people from your social platform an illegal infringement of citizens rights. So lets follow the same case back to CA.

https://law.justia.com/cases/california/supreme-court/3d/23/...

"The Agricultural Labor Relations Board opinion further observes that the power to regulate property is not static; rather it is capable of expansion to meet new conditions of modern life. Property rights must be "'redefined in response to a swelling demand that ownership be [23 Cal. 3d 907] responsible and responsive to the needs of the social whole. Property rights cannot be used as a shibboleth to cloak conduct which adversely affects the health, the safety, the morals, or the welfare of others.'"

In context it is talking about the worthiness of restricting the property rights of owners by forcing them to allow speech on their property.

In fact it calls out the fact that the increase in importance of places like malls makes the cause of allowing free speech there more worthy which is in line with the rise of importance of social media.

Seems pretty clear that there isn't much daylight between allowing people to petition people for an offensive cause in a mall vs on twitter at least in California but while I reluctantly agree with you I have a few concerns.

I'm concerned that in the short term our Orange dictator will end democracy as we know it and would prefer the matter of free speech to be litigated after we have averted the immediate threat and had the opportunity to decrease the power of the executive to decrease the chance of a similar situation. Given the time required for any court decision this seems inevitable.

The court it seems would have found it an infringement on the property owners rights if the activity made say commercial activity at the property impossible. What kind of activity on a platform would be regarded as a taking? Electronic properties are a lot different from physical ones in this regard.

- Is speech from a bot protected? Is it still protected if it pretends to be a bunch of fake people?

- Is using someone else's platform to distribute ads protected? Does it matter if they are political ads?

- Is Slander protected speech? Do we get to remove obvious to us slander or does it require a court to decide?

- Is direct incitement to illegal activity allowed?

- What about indirect incitement? Can I run ads for the purple haters club which aren't themselves directly offensive themselves but promote a group that everyone knows is all about promoting the murder of purple people?

It seems like disclaimers on posts are the safest legal choice as they represent the owners own free speech rights. From the Supreme Court opinion

"appellants are free to publicly dissociate themselves from the views of the speakers"

It seems logical that other limits to your free speech on others property will logically be established to protect the integrity of the platform in the future. It would be better if the limits in question could meet one standard under law.

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#417
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>social media sites should not be the business of censoring elected officials. That is the job of voters and Congress. What about Paul Nehlen, a political candidate who (before he was permabanned) frequently railed on Twitter against the "Jewish media" and mused about the "JQ", which stands for Jewish Question? Who called Jewish critics "shekels-for-hire" and used the phrase "The goyim know!" as an imitation of their…

> Social media is a not a public square where people can plant their soapbox Except there isn't really an alternative to Twitter - they have monopolised that "short catchy text stream" market. Other services, like Gab, exist - but when services like Cloudflare readily pull support for less mainstream alternatives, its hard to say that if you don't like Twitter you can go somewhere else. For better or worse, Facebook…

> but when services like Cloudflare readily pull support for less mainstream alternatives, its hard to say that if you don't like Twitter you can go somewhere else

But Cloudflare isn't a monopoly.

Botnet operators have no trouble finding crime-friendly DDoS protected hosting, the only reason the Nazis struggle with this is lack of experience.

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#418
post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No. But you said "Yes" two lines above. > They are common carriers. These common carriers are private companies, not public companies. They aren't owned by the government. They are owned by private shareholders. AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, etc are private companies or non government entities. > Twitter and the vast majority of other companies are not. I never claimed twitter and the vast majority of companies are. I o…

They can indeed censor, I think what the prior poster was saying is that if they choose to censor, their regulation changes.

That's not how it works. They can't censor. It's why they don't. Can you show me anyone who has been #Canceled from their phone service? Ever wonder why nobody demanded Harvey Weinstein or Trump lose their phone numbers? Because they can't do it.

If AT&T wants to censor, they have to go find other business. They can't be in the telephone business and censor. It's a lawsuit and possible jail for the execs involved.

People are so desperate to justify censorship that they'll make up nonsense. I can't believe anyone is dumb enough to believe all the pro-censorship nonsense in my thread. The only explanation is bias once again forcing people to make up and accept nonsense.

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#419
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the real answer. Removing the incentives that discourage interoperability and common standards would help. This probably means regulating spying-centric advertising and related mass-data-gathering out of existence. Twitter should be a protocol with many providers and many clients, not a restrictive service from a single provider. Ditto most of the rest.

It's not. This assumes that people want what's best for them. People want what was best for a small group of hunter-gatherers in hostile territory.

People should have the agency to decide what’s best for themselves. We all have natural rights to life, liberty and property.

Re: Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his employees

#420
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true but let's take it a step forward - if the TV station published a list of rules and your content did not cross the line but you were denied, would that be okay? Would retroactive application of rules be fine, or new rules created and then retroactively applied? Would it be okay if they refused simply because of who you were? Or what you did elsewhere? These kind of questions seem to be more applicable if w…

I wasn't ready to give an opinion! I was just stating the circumstances :) But, if I'm going to answer I think legal issues are grey and it can be tough to accept as a programmer dealing in binary. There aren't many absolute rules and sometimes a rule works well at one scale but not another. Part of the reason we should avoid monopolies is so people and governments can leave companies alone and those who disagree wit…

> I wasn't ready to give an opinion! I was just stating the circumstances :)

Any insightful comment, even "just" descriptive, deserves a response, nay, a challenge to force the speaker to tease out more! :)

And I'm glad I did because your opinion is spot on, in my opinion.

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