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How much do we need the police?

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461–470 of 505 posts

Re: How much do we need the police?

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The triggering cause was the act of one policeman and his three colleagues who stood by (which might indicate the constriction was perhaps a kind of standard procedure that went wrong - or not. Personally I am waiting for an official verdict). That's not "the police". If you say that's "the police", you can also say "that's black people" if a black person murders somebody. In any case, there is no excuse for riots.

you are intentionally diminishing the issues at hand. the police, yes "the police", have increasingly been militarized, abuse their power, and seen a general lack of repercussions when they do something wrong, even heinous crimes. this is systemic. whether you think that this was "just" a bad egg with three other bad eggs standing around or not, which in itself requires jumping through hoops, these issues are well di…

I'd rather look at such issues by data, rather than emotional responses to singular incidents. I'm not even saying that the police has no issues. But it certainly can't be inferred from that one incident, or even from, say, a dozen incidents over a couple of years. That's nothing compared to the millions of police interactions with the public every year.

I think incidents like this murder or what it was, should be treated like a bug in the system, and protocols should be adjusted to prevent such accidents. If it was a murder, I would still call it an accident in terms of the system, but the accident then was hiring a murderer, which surely isn't deliberate by the system.

I've read (but can't confirm) that kneeling on suspects to constrain them is outlawed in many places in the US already, but wasn't yet in Minnesota. So maybe some places have learned that it is a risky approach, and others haven't.

From afar US police looks scary and brutal. On the other hand, the criminals they encounter may also be more brutal and dangerous than in other countries. So I'd first like to hear some of their side before making a judgement.

Other problems are not so easy to solve, like lack of consequences. It sounds easy, but I would guess you can not make the job too risky for police officers. I don't know enough details about policing in the US, but one example that may illustrate what I mean: here in Germany, midwives now have the problem that they can not get insurance anymore, because of huge liabilities should anything go wrong during birth. Unfortunately, nobody can guarantee a safe birth, so many midwives can not continue their jobs. Not saying police officers shouldn't be liable for anything, just that I can imagine it is not easy to find a good balance.

As for "PoC are at greater risk", I'd like to see the data supporting that thesis. Especially since many police officers are PoC themselves, and apparently they kill more PoC than white police officers. For whatever reason (I imagine they are more often on duty in predominantly black neighborhoods), but it at least challenges the hypothesis that the police is inherently racist.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are intentionally diminishing the issues at hand. the police, yes "the police", have increasingly been militarized, abuse their power, and seen a general lack of repercussions when they do something wrong, even heinous crimes. this is systemic. whether you think that this was "just" a bad egg with three other bad eggs standing around or not, which in itself requires jumping through hoops, these issues are well di…

I'd rather look at such issues by data, rather than emotional responses to singular incidents. I'm not even saying that the police has no issues. But it certainly can't be inferred from that one incident, or even from, say, a dozen incidents over a couple of years. That's nothing compared to the millions of police interactions with the public every year. I think incidents like this murder or what it was, should be tr…

> Especially since many police officers are PoC themselves, and apparently they kill more PoC than white police officers.

Because they're police officers. It is and always has been the mandate of US police forces to violently repress non-whites, particularly Black people. The skin color of the cop doesn't change the function. Racism is not 'a white person did something mean to a non-white person'.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think police stop rapes from happening? Rapes happen in peoples' homes where there are no police. Then, if the victim chooses to report it, they are often blown off by the police entirely unless the circumstances make it impossible to ignore.

You confuse something that is bad in practice with something that is bad in theory

I confuse nothing, I simply care not for theory when practice shows it is bunk

Re: How much do we need the police?

#464
post #434
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, this is like pulling a single line out of a book and using it to bolster a specific argument. In other words, there's loads of context that's missing. Your video has less than 10 seconds of context. What happened just before the video starts? What happened 15 minutes before?

It's just a boring sit-in for hours before the clip starts. There is literally no context. The next night there isn't even an umbrella pretext, they just start spraying around 11:40pm after peaceful sit-in from 5pm. Here's video of the incident from 13 minutes prior (June 1): https://www.facebook.com/jessica.bundy.79/videos/36571421876... And earlier recording of the hours beforehand (June 1, earlier): https://www.fa…

This is a great example of what I said. I’ve seen this video from multiple perspectives. It is absolutely not the case that it started for no reason at all. That’s a total lie.

There are no “pretexts” happening. These conspiracy theories are absurd.

From the ground video of this same incident, it was seen that protestors were pushing on the fence. They then deployed umbrellas, some of which were deployed over the barrier. An officer swats a pink umbrella out of his face and grabs it. The protestor tries to pull it away. A tug-of-war struggle ensues. Another officer notices there is a struggle and rushes in with his pepper spray to get the girl off.

The whole time, the crowd was told they are NOT allowed to cross this street. They can cross any other street. The precinct is this way. They form a plan to “push through” earlier, and they chant to let them through.

on the other side, there are clearly projectiles being thrown, and before the cops deploy flashbangs, you can see some flashing from the crowd side - not sure what that is.

You might think they overreacted. You might think he shouldn’t have started the scuffle with the umbrella. You might think they shouldn’t have raised their spray over a combative protestor pushing the barricade and mouthing off from 12 inches away from a cop’s face. That’s all fine to debate. But there is a clear pattern of escalation, tension, and confusion. The cops did not just say “let’s fuck up some protestors!” out of nowhere and then fire. And they definitely didn’t set up a pretext. You guys sound like Alex Jones with that shit.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather look at such issues by data, rather than emotional responses to singular incidents. I'm not even saying that the police has no issues. But it certainly can't be inferred from that one incident, or even from, say, a dozen incidents over a couple of years. That's nothing compared to the millions of police interactions with the public every year. I think incidents like this murder or what it was, should be tr…

> Especially since many police officers are PoC themselves, and apparently they kill more PoC than white police officers. Because they're police officers. It is and always has been the mandate of US police forces to violently repress non-whites, particularly Black people. The skin color of the cop doesn't change the function. Racism is not 'a white person did something mean to a non-white person'.

I'd like to see the proof of that. Maybe they are just confronted with armed, trigger happy criminals every day and therefore have to answer with guns, too.

And what are you saying, without white people, there would be no need for police? PoC would just get by, no crime whatsoever? That seems unlikely to me.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The triggering cause was the act of one policeman and his three colleagues who stood by (which might indicate the constriction was perhaps a kind of standard procedure that went wrong - or not. Personally I am waiting for an official verdict). That's not "the police". If you say that's "the police", you can also say "that's black people" if a black person murders somebody. In any case, there is no excuse for riots.

Hmm, I've seen current USA riot footage where the police seemingly got spooked (by an umbrella), and proceeded to gas a couple of hundred peaceful protestors. Some riots and current outbreaks have certainly been caused by police. In other incidents riot police have been filmed purposefully and willfully attacking already subdued members of the public; looking around first to check for observers of course! One of the…

Not sure how to get from being gassed by the police to looting shops, though.

I haven't seen that footage, but of course I have heard of cases of violence against protesters. Doesn't really prove a deliberate approach to me. Maybe some police officers are also just human and get angry when people hurl stones at them and spit at them. If it's an excuse for the protesters, why not for the police. Sure, you'd hope they'd be trained in restraint, but at the end of the day, they are humans.

Also some footage may not tell the whole story. And maybe those cops were legitimately spooked by the umbrella. Better safe than sorry. I can't really blame them, wouldn't want to do their job.

In general, I think it would be wise not to provoke the police (or people with guns in general), don't wave around with objects that could be mistaken for guns, stuff like that? They should teach that in US schools, but every action movie teaches it, too. There is always that scene where a suspect reaches for their ID and then pauses because he realizes police might think he reaches for a weapon.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yikes, dude. I just don't agree with trying to ruin someones life forever, because they occasionally like to use drugs. That's not political nihilism. I don't really consider seeing a needle in the street a "third world standard of living". I don't enjoy seeing litter, but it's a reality of living in an urban area. There's beer cans, and yes people toss bottles to, so there's shards of glass in the street, and it's n…

>Yikes, dude. I just don't agree with trying to ruin someones life forever, because they occasionally like to use drugs. As if that's what we're doing. "Yikes bro", maybe stop straw manning everything I said into some kind of crypto fascist fantasy? Maybe consider that not being able to have your elderly parents take the subway when they visit - because of risk of violence, or you just don't want them around open inj…

Cities like Seattle and San Francisco clearly have a problem with the mentally ill and drug addicted on their streets, I agree that just leaving it "as is" should not be acceptable to anyone. It is scary, leads to more crime being committed and the people using needles in the street clearly need serious help.

Is criminalizing all drug users the answer though? We have 50 years or so of results there that show that has serious issues as well. Why are we willing to spend 30-40 thousand a year on imprisoning folks at a rate that no other country even comes close to, but not try spending similar amounts of money on actual rehabilitation and welfare programs for the addicted and mentally ill?

It seems worth a shot to me...

Re: How much do we need the police?

#468
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police try to find and arrest rapists, who would probably go on to rape other people if they weren't in prison.

Only if they decide they wouldn’t rather rape you too. https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/19/us/police-sexual-assaults-mar...

I'm wondering if you judge other groups by the worst behavior of any member of the given group?

Re: How much do we need the police?

#469
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police try to find and arrest rapists, who would probably go on to rape other people if they weren't in prison.

You would think. But I know someone who was raped. The guy even bragged about it. But the DA declined to prosecute.

Anecdotes become data when rape is involved.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#470
post #34
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police try to find and arrest rapists, who would probably go on to rape other people if they weren't in prison.

That is a lovely idea, but alas not matched by reality. https://www.startribune.com/ignoring-rape-complaints-when-po... https://www.focusforhealth.org/women-across-the-us-suing-pol... https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/11/investigates/police-... https://ilr.law.uiowa.edu/print/volume-99-issue-3/how-to-lie... And that's really just the tip of the iceberg.

All black people are violent. Now let me quote you five articles showing a black person being violent to prove my point. That's very convincing!
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