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Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

nytimes.com

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Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#331

Post by tharne »

pc86 wrote: post #199
tharne wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not enough people acknowledge this. The U.S. is a heavily armed country. It is very easy to (legally) buy military grade weapons in most states. Knowing that you could potentially get your head blown off anytime you pull someone over is going to lead to a very different psychology than you might see in a country like South Korea or Germany where very few people, if any, are armed. You can't just say, "Oh look how nic…

> It is very easy to (legally) buy military grade weapons in most states. I would love to know what you mean by "military grade" because by every definition I can think of this is so wrong it's either a statement with no bearing in reality, or an intentional lie.

I feel like this response is made in bad faith, since the meaning of "military grade" is fairly self-evident and straightforward, if somewhat imprecise. But in case this comment was made in good faith, perhaps by a non-native English speaker, here goes.

"Military grade weapons", in this context means light arms (rifles, pistols, etc.) similar in quality, function and performance to those commonly used by soldiers in the military.

In most states in the U.S. you can buy rifles similar to those used in the military. You can also buy kits to upgrade weapons from semi automatic to fully automatic and make all sorts of other enhancements to build up a nice little arsenal if that's your thing. I'm not a gun guy, but I have a number of friends who are, and frankly it's surprising what types of armaments are available to private citizens in the United States, even in states with supposedly restrictive gun laws.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#332

Post by tripzilch »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #328
TomSwirly wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All other police forces have the same problems. So why is the United States police unique amongst all other developed countries for its kill rate then? > Part of the training also drills in the fact that an untrained opponent with a sharp object like a knife is at a strategic advantage versus someone with a holstered firearm if they are closer than 21 feet away. And yet I've seen police officers here in Europe deal w…

The knife vs gun scenario is not disputed. The police didn’t make that up. It’s broadly accepted by combat experts. Self defense classes, firearms classes, and knife combat classes will tell you the same thing, and it’s easy to demonstrate. This is what it looks like even when the officer knows it is coming: https://youtu.be/2h0-q_IJbxE

It's only disputed by reality:

> And yet I've seen police officers here in Europe deal with people with knives without ever pulling a gun. Why can we do this and you can't?

"Combat experts" must hate these European police, not abiding by their theories.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#333

Post by tripzilch »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #279
c2471 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that the two are coupled. It is not clear why 0 false negatives is the aim. In almost all hard problems, you cannot have 0 false positives and 0 false negatives. Normally, getting to 0 false negatives requires a large number of false positives. E.g. if I wanted a 0 false negative pregnancy test, the only feasible way would be to tell some very large proportion (maybe all) test takers they are pregnant. I…

I want to disengage from the false positives/negatives discussion, it’s too abstract to be relevant, and demonstrably false anyway. There exists a system with 0% false positives. I find point (a) interesting. You posit that they have control over which situations they enter. But one of the major criticisms I hear, after abuse of force, is that “the police didn’t do anything”. It would seem that these are incompatible…

"too abstract to be relevant, but ALSO demonstrably false"

come on man.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#334

Post by tripzilch »

c2471 wrote: post #264
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is important to introduce into the discussion. I have felt that in the vast majority of controversial police shootings, especially in the mistaken identity cases, they were likely the result of a hair-trigger reflex and being on high alert, with your conditioning telling you that if an adversary either gets the jump on you or even gets into a strategically advantageous position, today is the day that you are goi…

I think this is touching on a key point about militarization of the police. I'm a non US veteran who went to Afghanistan. The police in the U.S. seem to think like they are in the military , in their training and tactics. One big problem is the U.S. military is not exactly well regarded for is nuanced handling of conflict. I once spoke to a marine who was involved in the invasion of Bagdad who describe their rules of…

> These ROE are almost certainly a war crime, but the US is special so it gets away with it.

Yes. What is and what is not a war crime is determined by the ICC in the Hague. The US does not recognize the authority of the ICC.

Per definition, no US soldier can literally ever commit a war crime.

So in that respect, they are not a whole lot different from US police. They can commit atrocities and get away with it.

It's like as if Germany decided to just not show up at Nuremberg.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#335

Post by tripzilch »

tharne wrote: post #150
nds43242 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you engender an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop in a country where there are more guns than people? I assume cops here are trained to see all citizens as armed threats, which systematically produces cops who are always on edge and ready to kill. The whole thing feels like a deeper problem than just training cops to be nicer.

Not enough people acknowledge this. The U.S. is a heavily armed country. It is very easy to (legally) buy military grade weapons in most states. Knowing that you could potentially get your head blown off anytime you pull someone over is going to lead to a very different psychology than you might see in a country like South Korea or Germany where very few people, if any, are armed. You can't just say, "Oh look how nic…

Are you just assuming this, or are there numbers on how "nice like EU country" police actually get their heads blown off in larger numbers than the "racist murderer" police?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#336

Post by tripzilch »

linuxftw wrote: post #109
nds43242 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you engender an idea of a UK/Canada-type cop in a country where there are more guns than people? I assume cops here are trained to see all citizens as armed threats, which systematically produces cops who are always on edge and ready to kill. The whole thing feels like a deeper problem than just training cops to be nicer.

How do you think citizens feel? I consider anyone and everyone potentially armed and potentially a threat, yet I'm not blowing people away in the streets. Sounds like police need to change their tactics. Seems like society needs to change their expectations on what police are doing on a day to day basis. Are criminal penalties too harsh? If you're looking at 25-life for a conviction, aren't you going to resist being…

Of course your penalties are too harsh. Not just the lengths either. Your prisons are simply awful places. Prison rape is so common it has its own trope. (and people joke about it, disgustingly)

And there's so much more wrong than just the rape thing. Just google "amnesty us prison" if you need more examples.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#337

Post by tripzilch »

nsl73 wrote: post #73
jeffbee wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the inventory will reduce the appeal of police work for psycho assholes who fantasize about shooting protesters. Special weapons and vehicles should be reserved for centralized, specialized police forces who are called out when needed, if ever. Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. 1: https://files.kstatecollegian.com/2014/08/08.27.1…

> Most cops should be issued a radio and a bicycle, so you attract people who want to look like [1] instead of [2]. Having police on the roads is having a huge positive impact on drinking and driving. Let’s be careful not to over-correct when demilitarizing our police force.

Apparently, other developed countries have found different ways to reduce drinking and driving ...

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#338

Post by zentiggr »

core-questions wrote: post #23
zentiggr wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like an excellent case for equipment limitations. At the very least making departments pay 'retail' for gear instead of getting effectively donated surplus.

Why should taxpayers who fund the police have to artificially pay more markup, making someone else rich, just so the police have less equipment?

(Disclosure: proud US submariner '94 - '00)

We're talking about them paying for military surplus like vehicles, machineguns and other items that 95% of departments don't need.

If the DoD weren't spreading surplus Army gear out like candy to babies who don't know how to use it, there would be a lot fewer opportunities for the not so stable elements of police departments to escalate otherwise normal situations just so they can play with big boy toys/get that "underfire" adrenaline hit again/get that power trip high that they craved from high school/soothe that sociopathic itch to dominate others.

We can put our voices together and force the DoD to stop this bullshit surplus program and acjnowledge that they built and bought too much and get egg on their faces as they destroy old gear and vehicles.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#339

Post by zentiggr »

core-questions wrote: post #170
mulmen wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s absolutely not the point of the police. Any power granted to the police is granted by the people they are changed with protecting. The police are not our overlords, they are our servants.

This is an understanding of power without any understanding of force or sovereignty. It should be more clear than ever what power truly is.

Power is local citizens banding together, grilling city council members about what equipment they will authorize the municipal police to use, and voting them out until the next councilor is one who will follow through on their election deal.

Starts at home.

When local departments get their acquisitions tightened down, then we start pressuring governors to turn the state police back into officers instead of National Guard reserve.

Starts at home.

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