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How much do we need the police?

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261–270 of 505 posts

Re: How much do we need the police?

#261

Traffic enforcement could be massively reduced if roads were designed differently to make people go the posted speed and be safer.

Crosswalks in the middle (not at intersections) like the UK. (This is an engineering solution.)

Make the posted speed limit actually tend to line up for green to green when going straight, and send turns down the road from the sides just before straight (to make going a tiny bit slower hit the green).

Re: How much do we need the police?

#262
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's a terrible experiment! For one, you're in a situation where the only people with serious weapons are criminals and police (because non-criminals could generally trust the police to handle violence for them). You haven't armed the populace, you haven't set up civilian watches, you haven't done any of the things that would happen in a society actually set up to be sustainably police-free. You took a society…

Why don’t we look at societies without police and contrast them to societies with police and tease out which have better outcomes?

In some rural communities the police can be hours away, if there's even an officer on shift right now. Virtually everyone in those communities has guns and it works out pretty well.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#263
Now we absolutely need police. We might have been able to do w/o them for short periods before these riots and demonstrations occurred, but now the police are guaranteed a permanent and prominent position in American politics (until it no longer exists).

Or perhaps we should settle the matter now, distribute working firearms and ammo to every non-felon over the age of 16 (or possibly 12). Either things will heat up and cool rapidly or everyone will suddenly acquire good manners. In the long run the USA can begin a renaissance of political equality and good will for all.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#265

I bring the below quotes to your attention: "It would be easy to think that the police officer is a figure who has existed since the beginning of civilization. […] however, the economics that drove the creation of police forces were centered […] on the preservation of the slavery system. Some of the primary policing institutions there were the slave patrols tasked with chasing down runaways and preventing slave revol…

Modern civilization has its roots in the Enligtenment, duh. And it's been generally a good thing.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/23/us/historical-study-of-ho...

> New data presented at the conference by a Dutch scholar, Pieter Spierenburg, showed that the homicide rate in Amsterdam, for example, dropped from 47 per 100,000 people in the mid-15th century to 1 to 1.5 per 100,000 in the early 19th century.

> Professor Stone has estimated that the homicide rate in medieval England was on average 10 times that of 20th century England. A study of the university town of Oxford in the 1340's showed an extraordinarily high annual rate of about 110 per 100,000 people. Studies of London in the first half of the 14th century determined a homicide rate of 36 to 52 per 100,000 people per year.

You can thank your local police department, among other institutions, for that dramatic decline in crime rates.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#266
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a guns issue, surely? Not got the exact stats but for 2019 I think police killings in the UK ~3 and US ~1000, with only a 5x difference in population. I'm a well spoken law abiding white guy and American cops frighten me. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enfo... https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police...

Let's not forget that the police themselves have their own share of fallen officers. For 2019, ~150 officers killed, out of ~700k total LEO. https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2019

It seems you're overstating the case. When I click through I see causes of death like "heart attack" and "automobile crash". Other people die of those causes as well.

Policing isn't even in the top ten most dangerous jobs. Save the honors for fishermen and lumberjacks.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#267

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

And that’s just the short term. Look at places like Somalia or Afghanistan to see what happens when law and order breaks down in a systematic way. The issue isn’t even just “crime” in the sense of robbery, etc. When there is no police, organized crime can take over. When we lived in Bangladesh in the 1980s, a minibus full of criminals showed up at the gate of our house. (This being Dhaka in the 1980s, we had a brick…

The demand in Seattle to defund the police isn't calling to totally remove funding. It's calling for a 50% reduction in the budget.

Just a heads up that "defund the police" isn't actually that different from "we need to rethink the roles where we have police"

Re: How much do we need the police?

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don’t we look at societies without police and contrast them to societies with police and tease out which have better outcomes?

In some rural communities the police can be hours away, if there's even an officer on shift right now. Virtually everyone in those communities has guns and it works out pretty well.

Yes and many small message boards on the internet don’t require folks to hold a moderator role.

It doesn’t scale.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#269
post #176

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

It was a natural experiment in what happens without police when the city is in the midst of an extreme wave of crime and violent protest, and one of the protests turns into a riot while the police were on strike. The idea that this incident demonstrates that any city will go up in flames immediately if the police take the day off is a misreading this specific moment in history. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murr…

Not just that, but also after a year of separatist terrorism(/freedom fighting, depending on perspective, of course). The riot(/uprising) was in October 1969, so I question how peaceable Pinker's Canada was at the time:

> In the first six months of 1969, there were 93 bank robberies in Montreal compared to 48 bank robberies in the first six months of 1968.[5] In January and February 1969, the FLQ staged 10 terrorist bombings in Montreal, and between August 1968 and February 1969, there were 75 bombings linked to the FLQ.[5] In February 1969, the FLQ set off bombs at the Montreal Stock Market (injuring 28 people) and at the offices of the Queen's Printer in Montreal.[5] March 1969 saw the outbreak of violent demonstrations as French-Canadians demanded that McGill University, a traditional bastion of Montreal's English-speaking elite, be transformed into a French-language university, leading to counter-demonstrations by English-Canadians to keep McGill an English language university.[4] The leader of the 'Operation McGill Français' protests was ironically a part-time Marxist political science lecturer from Ontario named Stanley Gray who could barely speak French, but who declared that McGill must become a French-language university to end "Anglo-elitism", rallying support from the Quebec separatist movement.[11] Over two weeks of clashes and protests, McGill was reduced to chaos as Quebec separatists stormed into the meetings of the McGill's Senate and administration chanting such slogans as "Révolution! Vive le Québec socialise! Vive le Québec libre!".[11] The climax of the 'Operation McGill Français' protests occurred on the evening of 28 March 1969 when a 9,000-strong group of Quebec separatists led by Gray tried to storm McGill, and clashed with the police who had been asked by McGill to keep Gray's group off the campus.[11] In September 1969, rioting broke out in the St. Leonard district between Italian-Canadians and French-Canadians with differing opinions of the language issue.[4] Italian immigrant parents had kept their children from school to protest the fact that the language of school instruction was now French instead of English, and on 10 September 1969, a group of 1,500 French-Canadian nationalists attempted to march through St. Leonard's Little Italy district to protest the school boycott.[12] Upon arrival, the marchers were attacked by the Italians, leading to a night of violence on the streets.[13]

Re: How much do we need the police?

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget that the police themselves have their own share of fallen officers. For 2019, ~150 officers killed, out of ~700k total LEO. https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2019

It seems you're overstating the case. When I click through I see causes of death like "heart attack" and "automobile crash". Other people die of those causes as well. Policing isn't even in the top ten most dangerous jobs. Save the honors for fishermen and lumberjacks.

Full data. I'll let you decide which deaths count and which don't.

    Total Line of Duty Deaths: 147
    9/11 related cancer         24
    Accidenta                   l1
    Assault                      3
    Automobile crash            22
    Drowned                      1
    Duty related illness         2
    Explosion                    1
    Gunfire                     48
    Gunfire (Inadvertent)        2
    Heart attack                19
    Motorcycle crash             1
    Struck by vehicle           14
    Training accident            1
    Vehicle pursuit              1
    Vehicular assault            7
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