How much do we need the police? • Hacker News Board

Re: How much do we need the police?

#221

Post by zaroth » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:16 AM UTC

pacala wrote: post #95

js2 wrote: post #3

I know folks don't always click through, so I'll highlight what I found most insightful: > Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. That's what distinguishes them from all other government functions. ... They have the legal capacity to use…

Another interesting fragment: > Q: Are the interactions that are happening right now between police and protesters something that you think is predictable? Or is this something new that we haven't seen before? > A: It's not completely new; it's just the intensity of it compared [with], let's say, five years ago during the Eric Garner and the Mike Brown protests. What we're seeing is really an immediate escalation to…

I stopped reading TFA after the characterization of police as “violence workers” to claim that all they can bring to a situation is violence, which is absurdly reductionist.

I think these quotes are not much better. The primary purpose and responsibility of our government is to protect life and property and maintain the rule of law. What we’ve seen in the last week is peaceful protests subverted by essentially militant groups into what is perhaps best described as insurrection.

If anything the initial police response was mismanaged and totally insufficient. The lack of policing gave space and air to the riotous members hiding within the protests to spread mayhem, destruction, and death. (e.g. [1])

That much at least is my own opinion from following many hours of social media, live-streams and first person accounts.

I would also take issue with the idea that body cameras have not increased accountability at least, even though the cameras do nothing to change the baseline level of danger and violence inherent in police work. I think most police are happy for the camera as it will tell their story and protect them against false accusations.

Of the 10 cases last year where an unarmed black person was shot and killed by police, in most cases the police officer(s) involved were being violently attacked by the person they shot, and video footage was often crucial in evaluating the use of force after the fact. In the two cases that did result in charges, body camera evidence was a material factor in at least one case (Atatiana Jefferson).

[1] - https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1268176768822685696?s=2...

Re: How much do we need the police?

#222

Post by pnw_hazor » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:22 AM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #81

jbay808 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This framing of the police seems very strange to my Canadian sensibilities. I'm curious about whether Americans largely agree with this description.

Canadians do not have violent warlords on their streets. You don't understand what it's like to live in our (mainly South Western) cities, and live with threats of drive-by shootings, vandalism, and getting caught in gunfire. My dad worked driving around downtown LA and surrounds for 20 some odd years and there was more than a few times he was caught in gang-based gunfire. This was in the 80s and 90s mostly, and thin…

Meanwhile American police killed 9 unarmed black men in 2019.

(In 2015, 36 unarmed black men were killed by American police)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...

Re: How much do we need the police?

#223

Post by JPKab » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:26 AM UTC

birdyrooster wrote: post #187

_8j50 wrote: post #175

"Police" (Edit:"modern police") is a 19th century invention, well after cities were a thing. If we get past semantics, a service that provides order and security to a community is needed. I imagine it more like social workers that also do criminal investigations for prosecutors instead of a military force for a city. Perhaps an unrelated armed "police" can help when deadly force is needed (gangs, armed criminals,etc.…

By civilizing the police we also mean affirmative action to bring the demographics of the officers in line with the people they serve. Removing guns wouldn’t have saved Eric Garner or George Floyd.

I'd hate to break it to you but if you look at the actual data collected on police shootings you will see that while black Americans are overrepresented (they are 13% of the population but represent 24% of people killed by police), there are many many cases where the person killed is the same race as the officer. The majority of people killed by police in the USA were white.

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/nationaltrends

BLM doesn't form protests when black men are killed by black cops. They are politically savvy and understand that the optics of that aren't conducive to their message. In fact, they don't appear to care at all about non black people killed by police either. The 76 percent of people killed by police that aren't black don't interest them.

The real danger to black men in USA is being murdered by a non cop. Black men are insanely overrepresented in both homicide victimization and perpetration.

It should be noted that southern whites in the USA had massive rates of homicide until the early 20th century. They have significantly higher rates of violence compared to northern whites even today.

Culture > Race

Re: How much do we need the police?

#224

Post by Barrin92 » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:29 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

I'm not personally a fan of anarchism but that seems like a weak argument. Many people of that persuasion also support significantly down-scaled local and self-sufficient communities or pastoral lifestyles, I very much doubt that Bakunin had modern Montreal in mind as a sort of model society for anarchism.

For a different take, do the Amish have a police force or are they frequently policed from the outside? Many people who advocate anarchism do so in the context of communities in which widespread looting makes little sense.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#225

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:30 AM UTC

birdyrooster wrote: post #187

_8j50 wrote: post #175

"Police" (Edit:"modern police") is a 19th century invention, well after cities were a thing. If we get past semantics, a service that provides order and security to a community is needed. I imagine it more like social workers that also do criminal investigations for prosecutors instead of a military force for a city. Perhaps an unrelated armed "police" can help when deadly force is needed (gangs, armed criminals,etc.…

By civilizing the police we also mean affirmative action to bring the demographics of the officers in line with the people they serve. Removing guns wouldn’t have saved Eric Garner or George Floyd.

Near as I can tell, the four cops on scene were quite racially diverse. It’s not clear that that’s the only answer either.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#226

Post by tathougies » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:31 AM UTC

ciarannolan wrote: post #18

missedthecue wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any proof that police having a Humvee makes them more violent or is that an emotional reaction?

>Is there any proof that police having a Humvee makes them more violent or is that an emotional reaction? The former [1]. >1033 receipts are associated with both an increase in the number of observed police killings in a given year as well as the change in the number of police killings from year to year, controlling for a battery of possible confounding variables including county wealth, racial makeup, civilian drug…

Yes but were not asking the most important question... Is there less crime? If police departments that didnt receive these weapons are too afraid to enforce laws then perhaps they should be getting some.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#227

Post by tathougies » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:34 AM UTC

socialdemocrat wrote: post #108

Not hard to see this article is written entirely from an American perspective with zero consideration of what policing looks like in other countries. I found this part in particular egregious: > Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. Tha…

Yes and Norway also had the largest mass shooting ever because police couldn't respond to the killer in time. Maybe some military equipment would have helped

Re: How much do we need the police?

#228

Post by pnw_hazor » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:35 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #206

pnw_hazor wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like most rights, the right to peaceably assemble and protest is not absolute. Here, but for a limited curfew the people can still protest at will. I am sure you know why there are curfews in Seattle and other places. It is because of the violence of the past few days. It is not to suppress free speech. Cyrus knows that. I think it sucks, but until the late night violence subsides this is probably the new normal. An…

The violence in Seattle on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday was started by police. There's numerous videos, both from the ground, and from the air, that quite clearly demonstrate this. On Tuesday night, the violence was started by a water bottle thrown into the police line. In response, the police gassed four city blocks, including residential apartments. People in those apartments were trapped between gas pouring into t…

The police did not instigate Sunday's criminal raids in Tukwila, Bellevue, and Southcenter. Nor, did they force people to throw molotov cocktails at Nordstroms or light cars on fire in downtown Seattle on Saturday.

Some act like that stuff has nothing to do with the curfew being imposed.

Now, as you may now, the local subreddit is filled with people suggesting different Hong Kong style tactics to exhaust the police or stretch their resources. Of course, exhausting the police will make it more dangerous for everyone. Because the police will be forced to take shortcuts or make mistakes which will increase the risk for everyone.

To what end? Seattle is a progressive city that could reform the police tomorrow if they wanted too.

edit-to-add:

Looks like Seattle police are getting to disperse the crowd. They are putting on gas masks and the scanner report objects being thrown from the crowd at 12th and Pine.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#229

Post by m0zg » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:37 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

This is what NYPD needs to do: just stop coming to work for a week "in solidarity", and tell everyone that there will be no police in NYC for a week. Not in "good" neighborhoods, not in "bad" neighborhoods, anywhere. Tables will turn so quick your head will spin.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#230

Post by always_left » Thu, Jun 04, 2020, 3:39 AM UTC

hedora wrote: post #151

always_left wrote: post #28

Does anyone ever take justice into their own hands? Not recommending it, but my neighbor's car was stolen so I went out and found it for them that day. It was reported missing but I had a feeling it wasn't going to be actively looked for due to the severity of the crime.

The penalties for taking the law into your own hands are generally highly asymmetric and in favor of the original perpetrator. For example, if you forced the car thieves out of the car, or parked it in place by blocking the road, you might be looking at assault charges. Similar arguments can be said for most other common crimes. Consider noise ordinances (harassing / threatening your neighbor until they shut up), tre…

Yeah definitely, I didn't want to get hurt over a car, I actually waited in my car until I saw them get into the car then I called the police. Otherwise they told me I can just take it back if no one is in it.