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How much do we need the police?

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Re: How much do we need the police?

#141

Post by sharkjacobs »

IggleSniggle wrote: post #129
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #10

We certainly need a police force to maintain a level of civilization in a large enough society. But of course, the problem is different: what KIND of policing we need, and how do we provide accountability. Quis custodiet custodes? [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quis_custodiet_ipsos_custodes%... edit: note that the "ipsos" part of the sentence in the wikipedia link is correct, but can be largely omitted. I stu…

I'm a little bit confused by your statement that the ipsos is both a correct quotation but can also be omitted. Is there some translation issue wherein the "ipsos" might or might not be part of the original poem?

As I understand, it is part of the original Juvenal quotation, but its omission does not substantially change the meaning of the sentnce.

Compare

> Who will guard the guards themselves?

with

> Who will guard the guards?

Re: How much do we need the police?

#142

Post by joombaga »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #126
tathougies wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A war on people shooting each other on our streets? A war on child trafficking? It's not about drugs, it's not about gangs. It's about how both those things lead to homicides and child endangerment. I don't care if a group of kids wants to band together. I don't care if someone wants to take a substance so they can trip. I care when -- in pursuit of those things -- children die, people are beaten and sodomized, sons…

Precisely zero people are out protesting excessive use of force against organized gangs running child prostitution rings.

I think the point was that removing war weapons from police damages their ability to forcefully oppose organized gangs running child prostitution rings.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#143

Post by glangdale »

BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

The thumb seems on the scale a bit with referring to "proudly peaceable Canada" - like everything in 1969 in Montreal was the picture and peace, and then out of nowhere a police strike caused mayhem.

The Wikipedia page for a sibling comment points out that Montreal already had problems: bank robberies, riots and terrorist bombings.

So if it's a 'natural experiment' it's one against a background of high levels of disorder to begin with.

I think it's also somewhat of a caricature to imagine that a total police strike is somehow indicative of what a radical reduction on police activity would look like. Most people calling for "de-policing" would draw the line at "let's not send police after bank robberies, assaults, riots, home invasions, etc".

Re: How much do we need the police?

#144

Post by metalgearsolid3 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

I don't think you're presenting your anecdote in good faith. Either that or you're just completely unaware of the context.

"Montreal was once known as the bank robbery capital of North America."

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/history-through-...

NYPD went on strike in 2014, if anyone wants to research that themselves... RIP Eric Garner

Re: How much do we need the police?

#145

Post by rglover »

BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

For those curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot

Re: How much do we need the police?

#146

Post by flyingfences »

BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

All that sort of damage has also happened in plenty of situations when the police were not on strike, though... I don't think that one unusual event (an anecdote) is any indication of any larger pattern.

More to the point, though, the article doesn't suggest a complete abolition of all police; it suggests returning them to a more limited, core role.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#147

Post by 01100011 »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #108

Not hard to see this article is written entirely from an American perspective with zero consideration of what policing looks like in other countries. I found this part in particular egregious: > Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence workers. Tha…

Does Norway have as many guns as the US? Do first responders often have to fear for their lives?

I am all for reforming the US social safety net and criminal justice system, but I think you need to understand what we deal with. We have, for one reason or another, very dangerous areas of our nation and they are filled with weapons and hopeless people willing to use them. I don't think the problem we face has an easy solution. I think it helps to try to empathize with the situation black people in America face on a daily basis. Then it helps to empathize with the situation first responders have to deal with on a daily basis.

Here is a rather disturbing video which led to a firefighter and a civilian losing their life:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=fR6lMfMx4O8&...

it helped me understand the issue is not so simple.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#148

Post by BurningFrog »

vncecartersknee wrote: post #138
BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

How is this a natural experiment? Anarchism isn't just "when there are no police" Obviously looting should be read as exposing underlying ills and unmet needs within society. Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? look how many people in just the US riots alone cooperated to form medical stations, to work against police tactics, to make sure protestors had…

> Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly?

Don't know about that, but there is ABSOLUTELY enough selfish/predatory/angry people in any population that will commit violent acts for profit and pleasure if the risks of being brought to justice disappears.

I would not have guessed it would erupt as fast as it did in Montreal, but empirically, it did.

I expect day 2 would have been a lot worse. Pray that we never find out :)

> Obviously looting should be read as exposing underlying ills and unmet needs within society

Well, some people never find their needs met...

Re: How much do we need the police?

#149

Post by Supermancho »

vncecartersknee wrote: post #138
BurningFrog wrote: post #38

Montreal once had a 16 hour police strike, creating a natural experiment in what happens without police. Steven Pinker describes how that went: > "As a young teenager in proudly peaceable Canada during the romantic 1960s, I was a true believer in Bakunin's anarchism. I laughed off my parents' argument that if the government ever laid down its arms all hell would break loose. Our competing predictions were put to the…

How is this a natural experiment? Anarchism isn't just "when there are no police" Obviously looting should be read as exposing underlying ills and unmet needs within society. Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly? look how many people in just the US riots alone cooperated to form medical stations, to work against police tactics, to make sure protestors had…

> Like are you suggesting the natural state of people is just to loot and behave completely selfishly?

'Completely' is a meaningless term. Animals behave selfishly in almost every choice (even in altruism) as part of the survival instinct. There is a question of degree and there is a distribution curve that hasn't been fully explored. For some people, some desperate or casual situations lead to barbaric (lack of a better term) behavior, when possible, for some portion of the population. Even with a police force, the curve exists and we experience the effects.

Re: How much do we need the police?

#150

Post by wolfgang42 »

kyleee wrote: post #131
wolfgang42 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced that eliminating police altogether is a good idea, but after reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Hill_riot (which cites your Stephen Pinker quote), I don’t think that a situation which also involved “taxi drivers... armed with Molotov cocktails” is representative of what might happen if police departments were disbanded under other circumstances. (Edit: I regret putting snark over substance…

" I don’t think that a situation which also involved “taxi drivers... armed with Molotov cocktails” is representative of what might happen if police departments were disbanded under other circumstances" Why not?

From the sounds of it, tensions were already running high in the city (and the police felt that they weren’t getting paid enough to deal with it); on top of that the police had incentive to time their strike to happen at the worst possible moment. They were also joined in their protest by other groups inclined towards violence, and had reason to encourage those groups (in order to show that they were needed). The reason all of the quoted incidents happened at once is because a lot of different groups were handed an opportunity on a silver platter by a group who had it in their best interests to see a lot of violence break out.

This is a very different scenario from a controlled, scheduled spindown of a department by the city government.

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