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Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

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Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#291

Post by CPLX »

gwern wrote: post #202

To toss in a second-hand anecdote: I once asked someone who worked at/with companies screening Africans for diamonds in the rough, smart guys who could do programming but were being paid peanuts, like $10k/year, and paying them a multiple of that for outsourcing, why it wasn't such a great idea, when Africa seems to have so many under-utilized people. He said that despite expectations, they were not much cheaper to h…

Japanese cars were considered cheap and poor quality too, until they weren't. Chinese-made used to be a synonym for shoddy workmanship. Like recently, when I was an adult, and I'm not that old.

Things do change.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#292

Post by jpollock »

The price gaps depend on currency exchange rates, and the exchange rates can change rapidly.

I worked in NZ, and I was paid in NZD, but the company sold their products in USD. This meant the profit fluctuated. Dramatically.

The exchange rate has moved from ~0.4 USD/NZD to ~0.85USD/NZD.

Right now, it's sitting about 0.65, but you can see the problem. If you price something at 40c, it goes to 85c, you've got a problem. Even a 25% swing should be expected.

A lot of these cost savings can be valid short term, but setting up a team (rather than a project) is a multi-year thing. Don't forget the currency risks.

I have specific experience with this, where they attempted to outsource the engineering team to India. However, the exchange rate shifted, and the ROI disappeared. Two years of distraction and training our replacements gone.

This can work well, it's why the Lord of the Rings movies were made. You have to know where your risks are, or you could find the developers that you thought were cheap all of a sudden aren't. Generally, it means you need to do it for some reason other than price.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#293

Post by ci5er »

pdimitar wrote: post #214
cuddlybacon wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but on the other hand it is unpleasant to have a problem, be fully aware of the problem, and have every passerby point it out to you as if you are a team of idiots who can't see the obvious.

The hard truth is that (1) people are not stupid and are usually keenly aware of the issues but (2a) many are just warming seats and don't care or (2b) lost the will to fight the company's culture but are unwilling to leave the cosy job.

I used to work for an American semi-conductor company that no longer exists in its original form in (at that time) MCUs. MCUs are essentially CPUs with an internal bus, and some modules (PWM, A/D converter, math co-processor, what not) and that bus connects to the outside (often at a different speed) where it connects to various RAM and serial and/or parallel devices and analog innies or outies.

The systems engineer (who was a friend, but maybe not the smartest tool in the shed) spec'd a system, and (high level verilog) simulated the system, and gave the output to the circuit guys (led by (also a friend) one of the most talented mixed-signal circuit designers I know - but abrasive as hell), said: "It won't work. Too much power draw on on modules off the bus. And besided is you power them through the bus, you're going to get a lot of noise and chop and brown-outs".

The manager - who was not an idiot - but to your point (1) above, was NOT aware of the issue and didn't want to believe it was issue and was NOT keenly aware of the issue (he was in denial), so they ran the wafers.

Chips come back - they don't work. Power draw issues.

My circuit designer friend (remember the abrasive part?) - gloated and mocked them for being idiots that did not know how to listen. (He was right - but he didn't have many friends in management).

They said: "OK. Make the changes. We'll do another run.". He said: Give me a couple of die. He went back to the lab - laser snipped a couple of traces - and voila! It now worked! (He had designed in a way to solve the problem as if they had originally decided to do it his way)

He cut 3 months off the schedule - saved millions of dollars - but were mad as hell. I think they wanted to fire him.

I learned a couple of things from all of that:

- Sometimes smart people don't know about problems because they don't want to know

- Pride is a horrible sin - I would have been grateful to have my bacon saved - they were not

- Nobody ever gets a bonus or promotion for putting out a fire that never actually gets started.

EDIT: Formatting. It's stil not great.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#294

Post by luminaobscura »

Google for example has large offices in Europe. Like in London or Warsaw. They pay significantly less there and find no difficulty hiring people. What i don't understand is why Google still have majority of their engineers in US. Why not hire more in abroad? Makes zero financial sense to me.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#296

Post by pdimitar »

ci5er wrote: post #293
pdimitar wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard truth is that (1) people are not stupid and are usually keenly aware of the issues but (2a) many are just warming seats and don't care or (2b) lost the will to fight the company's culture but are unwilling to leave the cosy job.

I used to work for an American semi-conductor company that no longer exists in its original form in (at that time) MCUs. MCUs are essentially CPUs with an internal bus, and some modules (PWM, A/D converter, math co-processor, what not) and that bus connects to the outside (often at a different speed) where it connects to various RAM and serial and/or parallel devices and analog innies or outies. The systems engineer…

Another possible takeaway:

- Being excellent becomes a baseline expectation if you do it long enough so it's best you never put out your best possible work in the office?

Pretty interesting story, thank you for it! Seriously though, my main takeaway is that you can be a genius and not an ass -- at the same time. But in your particular example the guy was completely in his right to mock them.

And sadly yes, pride overrides a lot of other, supposedly much more important, factors. Learned that over my career as well and it's not one of the lessons that I enjoyed receiving.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#297

Post by bigiain »

monksy wrote: post #290
wahern wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynical or sarcastic jokes are arguably the opposite of blunt. They're a way to acknowledge or broach a subject which the person, and most often the group, is uncomfortable or incapable of articulating more clearly. For example, because they're being forced to do the impossible, or because the character, cause, or resolution of an issue is poorly understood. People from cultures where sarcasm isn't common don't under…

It must be said that there has been a counter-culture that has been militant in trying to get rid of this. They're enforcing speach codes via code of conducts. (I.e. look at some of the recent examples including Linus Torvald (and the number of people who piled on), donglegate guys, etc)

To be fair, Linus has admitted to and shown himself capable of being an asshole, and the donglegate guys are people I would not want working with my sister.

You can be cynical and sarcastic without being personally abusive or a sexist troglodyte.

The "militant counter culture" you speak of definitely does exist. But codes of conduct didn't start appearing out of thin air, they exist because they need to exist. Anyone who doesn't recognise that is almost certainly coming from a place of oblivious privilege. (Hell, I admit to being obliviously privileged a lot of the time, and _I_ can see the very real need for codes of conduct to exist so that assholes and troglodytes can't continue saying "It's a joke, calm down", or "I'm just being blunt, you can't handle the truth" or all the other gaslighting bullshit they so often get away with...)

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#298

Post by bigiain »

austincheney wrote: post #280
wahern wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynical or sarcastic jokes are arguably the opposite of blunt. They're a way to acknowledge or broach a subject which the person, and most often the group, is uncomfortable or incapable of articulating more clearly. For example, because they're being forced to do the impossible, or because the character, cause, or resolution of an issue is poorly understood. People from cultures where sarcasm isn't common don't under…

As I have discovered direction and attitude make a huge difference in the understanding and comfort of sarcasm to persons with no familiarity of the concept. If the target of the sarcasm is a third party the communication comes out clearly absurd but both the speaker and listener can understand and appreciate the absurdity together, which is less confusing. If the direction of the sarcasm is something about the liste…

Yes.

Sarcasm + empathy for those around you dealing with the problem = powerful form of communication.

Sarcasm + being an asshole = being an asshole.

(Note: This is from my Australian background/culture/point-of-view, and I don't for a moment think it applies cross culturally - we are the culture where calling someone a cunt can be either a sign of deep profound friendship, or a reason to be punched in the face. When in the US, I need to be careful with that sort of instinctive interaction/language...)

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#299

Post by allarm »

crote wrote: post #13

It seems to be missing a very big factor: culture. If your goal is to implement some code for, say, healthcare, it is a lot easier to explain the business process to someone who is already familiar with how stuff is done on a higher level. Whenever you hire someone from a different culture / country, you need to start from the basics by explaining the very core of your society. An American programmer might not be too…

> An American programmer might not be too concerned if a body temperature measurement returns 45 degrees Celcius. Similarly, a patient height of 95in probably wouldn't immediately raise alarm bells for a European developer.

I would be questioning professional qualities of these programmers at this point. That’s just a common sense and base knowledge about the world you live in and people you write code for.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#300

Post by lordlic »

dxbydt wrote: post #172

imho american programmers are in for a world of hurt. Day of reckoning is coming. Its just not today. So if you say its today, you naturally get the derision and downvotes. But that doesn’t mean there is no such day. Just 2-3 days ago we sent 2 chaps into space. 50 years ago with far more primitive software we sent them to the moon. And you are bitching about how your software profession is so fragile it’ll be messed…

Well, the cultural chauvinists elsewhere in this discussion are certainly in for a rude awakening but I don't know how much pain American programmers will feel. We have a lot of really first-rate engineers and product people, and we won't stop making our own breakthroughs just because new countries are emerging in the global tech scene. And, in the medium term at least, we have the inertia of several trillion dollars worth of tech behemoths having strong ties to the US. Also, this isn't a zero-sum game; American tech companies generally don't have great penetration in markets like China and India with home-grown competitors, and those competitors generally don't have notable penetration outside of their home markets. There's plenty of growth to be realized without anyone being in a world of hurt.
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