Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#281

Post by skissane » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:56 PM UTC

SomeoneFromCA wrote: post #272

skissane wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are good things there of course, first and foremost the salaries and the nice suburban houses Australia has lots of nice suburban houses too. But they are expensive, and you'll struggle to get paid enough to afford one. One advantage the US has over Australia – while it has really expensive areas like the Bay Area or Manhattan, it also has lots of medium-sized cities with affordable housing and plenty of jobs…

Minimal wage in Australia is way higher tha in US. A regular Joe lives a better life in AU than in US.

At the lower end of income, pay is definitely better in AU than US. (At higher ends of income, it tends to be the other way around.)

Housing affordability is on the whole a lot worse. The majority of the US population lives in areas with relatively affordable housing. In Australia, the majority of the population lives in areas with low housing affordability. There are a number of contributing factors – US had a big real estate crash in 2008, Australian property prices only experienced modest falls. I think one of the factors behind the more modest crash is that in US most residential mortgages are no-recourse, in Australia full-recourse is the norm, so it is much easier for US homeowners to walk away if their asset is underwater. US foreclosure laws tend to be much more borrower-friendly than Australian laws as well. Differences in population distribution (Australia's population is much more centralised than the US's) is another factor. Yet another factor is that Australia has mortgage interest tax deductions for property investors but not for owner-occupiers (unlike the US where owner-occupiers get mortgage interest deductions) – which I think changes the occupier-vs-investor balance in property ownership in a way which disadvantages the asset-poor majority of the population (while benefiting the asset-rich minority) – and also contributes to the heated Australian property market.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#282

Post by narag » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

S_A_P wrote: post #274

This blog seems to make the same mistake that all programmer management does- that programmers are interchangeable and domain knowledge doesnt matter. Sorry, but I know developers with way more natural talent than I have but without context to what they want to accomplish it means little. Can those developers learn what I know and then be 10x what I am? sure. But there are few domains where there isnt a learning curv…

So for you the key is specialization? I came here to say the opposite, that the blog also fails to mention: the salaries are similarly low or high depending on what country you look at... for every profesion, not specifically programmers.

In some countries you can earn more waiting tables than a programmer in others. Much more than a waiter in others. Do you think PISA scores matter for that? Or that a waiter is three times more productive in rich countries?

The explanation (for general blue collar jobs) that I've read and was convincing enough is the lack of solid industrial jobs. If you can work in a factory for 2, you are not going to accept another same-effort job for 1, or a more challeging job for 2.

Of course in programming hot spots there's plain shortage so it's just an auction.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#283

Post by partomniscient » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

This is one of those sneaky ones where you think they've left New Zealand off the map again, but upon closer inspection, its actually there.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#284

Post by T-hawk » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:12 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #32

> 3. Most "good" programmers move to the high-income countries > Again, fairly hard to find data on this I'm surprised it's hard to find data, but yes, this consistently matches my observation over the past 30 years and four different geographic locations: very few American programmers are American at all. When I did my master's in CS 15 years ago, I was almost always the only person in the room born in the United St…

One angle on that: American programmers may not do master's degrees as much, for less need. You can usually get hired in industry without a master's, if you can speak well and demonstrate your experience and portfolio enough. I'm American, with only a bachelor's in CS, but I've never felt like a master's is needed for anything in industry, only academia. A foreign-born programmer without the experience and portfolio would likely feel more need for a master's degree to demonstrate qualifications.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#285

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:25 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #255

skissane wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are good things there of course, first and foremost the salaries and the nice suburban houses Australia has lots of nice suburban houses too. But they are expensive, and you'll struggle to get paid enough to afford one. One advantage the US has over Australia – while it has really expensive areas like the Bay Area or Manhattan, it also has lots of medium-sized cities with affordable housing and plenty of jobs…

I think Australia offers a better life for the average person than the U.S but that's just my opinion (though I've never been there). At the same time it's so far from anywhere else, if you're Indian or Bulgarian you better stick to Europe if you want to keep in touch with your family and friends. As for North Europe: I think it's several factors keeping people moving there en masse, the language + familiar culture a…

[deleted]

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#286

Post by M5x7wI3CmbEem10 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:43 PM UTC

silvestrov wrote: post #44

crote wrote: post #13

It seems to be missing a very big factor: culture. If your goal is to implement some code for, say, healthcare, it is a lot easier to explain the business process to someone who is already familiar with how stuff is done on a higher level. Whenever you hire someone from a different culture / country, you need to start from the basics by explaining the very core of your society. An American programmer might not be too…

Another aspect of culture: how one-sided the communication is. Silicon Valley and Scandinavian cultures are very flat, so it is possible for "the man on the floor" to tell management that it doesn't work to put diesel into a gasoline car. In authoritarian cultures this would be a mistake as it's seen as embarrassing the management by saying they made a mistake. If you want to continue being employed then it is much b…

I wonder what the advantages were for these authoritarian structures to have stood for so long.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#287

Post by zaphirplane » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:47 PM UTC

lowdose wrote: post #252

kakwa_ wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an European perspective, this has not exactly been my experience working with an international team. The US collective mentality is sometime overly optimistic specially in public. This is sometimes a positive since it removes almost any inhibition regarding challenges, but it can lead to things blowing-up spectacularly, and then having to put in place hacks and brute force to make it kind of work relatively inef…

In this case positivism is a self fulfilling prophecy. A lot of times we are on local not a global maximum. Last weekend Elon Musk put a couple of people in space at a fraction of the costs NASA originally spent. I think and hope many industries can still be disrupted in a similar way.

I don’t know much about that and could be off the mark.

You seem to be comparing the cost of doing something the first time with doing it 40 years of technology later

Perhaps it’s wording and I’m sure private companies are more cost effective compared to government

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#288

Post by GlennS » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

teatree wrote: post #100

bitwize wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is that dictators usually fail to be sufficiently enlightened or benevolent.

Somehow China has been an outlier to this norm, so far.

I disagree, China seems to fit right into the pattern.

Mao became undisputed leader. His purges were bad enough that the party decided to implement a 10 year term limit.

Xi removed that limit, and now China is swinging slowly towards authoritarianism. We're still in the early years of his rule at this point. Wait till he makes a mistake and his grip starts slipping, then he will see enemies everywhere.

When someone makes themselves ruler for life, it tells you that their character is not suitable for that position, because they lack the humility to hand over their work to a successor. Because they've decided they can't trust other people's motives and competence.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#289

Post by abellerose » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

I find it hilarious that people continue to undervalue the skill requirement for programming. Thoughts of Oh I'll just hire someone off shore and make a fortune. Good luck finding someone naive & intelligent enough to write code in poorly developed areas around the globe and have them programming for you while you make a fortune. People expect a decent quality of life, specifically if they're making anything of value for someone else and that requires being around similar peers living an okay lifestyle. Otherwise they will burnout or worse and after maybe a year you will have code that needs rewritten.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#290

Post by monksy » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 11:52 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #190

viklove wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience Americans are pretty blunt, and will not hesitate to point out flaws and make cynical jokes about them openly in the presence of their team.

Cynical or sarcastic jokes are arguably the opposite of blunt. They're a way to acknowledge or broach a subject which the person, and most often the group, is uncomfortable or incapable of articulating more clearly. For example, because they're being forced to do the impossible, or because the character, cause, or resolution of an issue is poorly understood. People from cultures where sarcasm isn't common don't under…

It must be said that there has been a counter-culture that has been militant in trying to get rid of this. They're enforcing speach codes via code of conducts. (I.e. look at some of the recent examples including Linus Torvald (and the number of people who piled on), donglegate guys, etc)