Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#211

Post by pdimitar » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #119

Frost1x wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business culture in the US is also quite authoritarian. There have been decades of strategic peeling away of labor rights to put labor in a more leveraged situation, leading to restricted freedoms. Sure, you can tell your manager/director/CIO/CTO their choice is idiotic but the fact is, you'll be fired instantly and depending on circumstances, you may be in a bad situation financially and future career wise. The very…

>> you often have to agree, then have a sidebar conversation directly with that person so their negligence, ignorant mistake, or intentional malice isn't put on a large group or public display. That should be obvious. Most people I've worked for can be challenged in private if you've actually got a point - even if you're shot down in the end. The ones who are still assholes when handled correctly are usually not wort…

> That should be obvious.

That's exactly what different cultures look like: it's absolutely not obvious in Eastern Europe where I live. We call each other out on our BS freely and directly, and almost nobody ever gets offended.

It is quite the cultural shock for many of us when we suddenly have to sugar-coat and positive-tone-first every work criticism we express. It can feel like a huge waste of time and energy while if somebody tells me "Dimi, your code in module X sucks!" and I'll just laugh and say "dude, I had only a day to finish that, sorry -- if you don't like it, talk to the boss to give me one more week on it and it's going to be swell".

So no, such things as the one you quoted aren't obvious at all for many. I'd even argue they are only prevalent in the USA but I've seen evidence in both directions so I can't claim anything absolute there.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#212

Post by snovv_crash » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:41 PM UTC

frank2 wrote: post #151

My working hypothesis for why programmer-employees in the Bay Area and New York City get paid more is that so many of them have a credible alternative to being an employee, namely becoming a startup founder, which I imagine has helped them in salary negotiations. This map near the start of the OP makes me wonder whether, similar to the markets in the Bay Area and New York, the markets in Switzerland and Norway give p…

Cost of living in these locations is incredibly high. I think as an employee it is easier to negotiate a salary as a multiple of fixed costs of living (rent, food, transport, entertainment).

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#213

Post by snovv_crash » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:44 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #145

secretsatan wrote: post #93

Interesting switzerland is mentioned, there does seem to be a shortage of programmers here, our company recruits a sizeable chunk from abroad. Also, if you search in a local language, especially german, there are a lot of open positions, where fluent command of the local language is required.

I considered immigrating to Switzerland at some point but the heavy emphasis on local languages (even in programming jobs) put me off. It's much more relaxed in the Netherlands.

Depends what kind of programming job. A manufacturing setup which hires a lot of trade-school labor, sure. A startup, less so.

Also, learning the local language helps integrating once you arrive.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#214

Post by pdimitar » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

cuddlybacon wrote: post #203

TeMPOraL wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Proposing a complete solution that takes in the needs of the various stakeholders and doesn't just move the problem and does so in a way that makes the whole situation easier There's a fine line between being thorough, and doing the job of several other people for them. The latter isn't what you're being paid for, and in some companies isn't appreciated if it risks some of them losing face.

True, but on the other hand it is unpleasant to have a problem, be fully aware of the problem, and have every passerby point it out to you as if you are a team of idiots who can't see the obvious.

The hard truth is that (1) people are not stupid and are usually keenly aware of the issues but (2a) many are just warming seats and don't care or (2b) lost the will to fight the company's culture but are unwilling to leave the cosy job.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#215

Post by brenden2 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

babesh wrote: post #176

This article is badly informed and badly reasoned. Adam Smith - An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations ” It is not, accordingly, in the richest countries, but in the most thriving, or in those which are growing rich the fastest, that the wages of labour are highest.” In those places, you are willing to pay the most since it will make you the most. Brooke’s Law Wikipedia “ Communication overhea…

Wealth of Nations is such a good book, I implore everyone to read it. I think a lot of people misunderstand what Adam Smith was about, and it's good to go back to the early ideas of what capitalism was meant to be, and how far we have diverged from it.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#216

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

"I'd expect an inverse correlation between % of the population employed in ICT and salary, instead, I find the opposite. In the better-paid countries, a lot of people are working IT, whilst in the worst-paid countries, it's much fewer."

I am not sure how that is not a simple corollary of economics behaving more or less how it usually does.

"Moving on from the right to the left of the economic axis we have a maximally corrupt market, which serves only to funnel money to the richest people at the expenses of the poorer at all levels and thus global inequality in anything (including salaries) should be correlated with how rich a country already is.

"How do we identify a "rich oppressive country"? Hard to tell.

"Is PPP per capita as good and indicator as any? Probably. Since I don't know how recent the Bloomberg data is, I will go ahead and use the GDP data from 2012, since that's when my PISA data is from."

High GDP indicates high inequality?

"Programmer salaries are very strongly correlated with how wealthy a country is.

"Programmer salaries are strongly correlated with how well-educated a country is.

"Programmer salaries are relatively well correlated with how well a certain country speaks English.

"Programmer salaries are inversely correlated with % of the population working in IT.

"But since all of those 4 things are strongly correlated to each other."

Ok, I'll buy that. But I'm still not sure what this has to do with the question asked by the title.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#217

Post by tathougies » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

This ignores obvious regulations around freedom of movement. There is not actually one global market for programmers.

1. Even remote-first companies are likely to want to all gather together once in a while.

2. It's easy to run afowl of things like American crypto export restrictions when doing work in a foreign country

3. Startups are going to want to prefer working with local people because you can simply get more done working in a room with someone than via slack / zoom / etc. Moreover, hiring a single employee gives you more leverage than hiring an outsourcing firm.

4. Remote, foreign employees are going to be independent contractors, because actually complying with 50 different employment laws is really really hard.

5. Even if an employee is hired in a foreign country, that country's laws may lower the salary. For example, taxes vary by country. Payroll tax is higher in Europe than America, thus companies may be spending the same amount, but the employee receiving less. Similarly, in countries like India (and some in Europe too), there are much stricter requirements on when you can fire employees, whereas in many US states, like California, employment is at-will. This would also be expected to lower salaries in areas where more employees could easily become a liability.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#218

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #87

siscia wrote: post #17

> Programming jobs are silly easy to move around and most of them can be done remotely. As long as you start with this hypothesis whatever analysis you do will be wrong. We do have problem coordinate between teams that share the same hall and the same boss, I cannot even imagine what would happen with complete remote team in Vietnam to save money. It would be just better to stop develop software ourselves. Now with C…

Put another way, the converse hypothesis "programming jobs are not easy to move around and most of them can not be done remotely" resisted falsification, increasing our confidence in its truth.

On the other hand, there are quite a few counter examples.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#219

Post by ppeetteerr » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 8:58 PM UTC

Missing hypothesis:

Culture, trust and autonomy.

Having someone that identifies with a project, someone whose reputation in a city is connected with a project's execution, someone who builds relationships and creates a sense of ownership, is much more valuable than an engineer whose only relationship with a project is a monitor and Slack.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#220

Post by pdimitar » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #70

crote wrote: post #13

It seems to be missing a very big factor: culture. If your goal is to implement some code for, say, healthcare, it is a lot easier to explain the business process to someone who is already familiar with how stuff is done on a higher level. Whenever you hire someone from a different culture / country, you need to start from the basics by explaining the very core of your society. An American programmer might not be too…

Whenever you hire someone from a different culture / country, you need to start from the basics by explaining the very core of your society. An American programmer might not be too concerned if a body temperature measurement returns 45 degrees Celcius. Similarly, a patient height of 95in probably wouldn't immediately raise alarm bells for a European developer. This is so key and has been overlooked for decades. In ad…

> Thing is, in typical offshoring arrangements, much of this is impossible.

I am quite the outgoing and easily sociable guy but I'll agree this is impossible and will tell you why it's impossible for me:

What you propose happens on the company time. Remote contractors always have this anxiety about "am I spending my time being focused enough on the work I am paid for?"

Shortly before I was laid off from my last job I realized that I constantly postponed getting to know the team better because of that.

It's hard to let yourself be looser if don't have the status of an employee (vs. being a contractor) and/or if you aren't shown you are a valued member of the team.