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Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

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Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#161

I have a Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga that claims to be certified by both Lenovo and Canonical for Ubuntu. Finger print sensor doesn't work, the fans are super loud all the time, audio doesn't work (requires a newer Linux kernel than the one shipped in the latest Ubuntu), EFI problems, sleep, hibernate, fast-boot, restore from hibernate problems, battery life on Linux is horrible... So at least the certification for Ubuntu i…

Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience... I've had great success with the T430, T480p and X1 Extreme.

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#162
When looking at Linux support I start with the Linux Vendor Firmware Service [1]. If the model I’m looking at isn’t supported then it’s off my list. You’ll notice that not all Thinkpads are supported [2].

The E, L and Yoga series are not supported but the T, P and X series are.

[1] https://fwupd.org/

[2] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/search?&value=thinkpad

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#163
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(ne plus ultra: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ne%20plus%20ultra )

It's universally non plus ultra http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...

Oh, OK, TIL. I’ve never heard that!

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#164
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can take screenshots under Wayland, you just can not use random X11 tool that you were used to. All Wayland compositors come with some tool, that can take screenshots.

The real issue is the clipboard which gets cleaned after closing the Window from where you copied.

I would guess that the format negotiation for clipboard data has something to do with that. You cannot negotiate when the originating app is not there anymore.

But then, is it a real problem? I understand, that some users might be inconvenienced by that, because they got used to it in their workflow... but is it really a showstopper?

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original argument was the need for CUDA. It works headless, no sadness about that. What is sad, is to reward Nvidia with your money despite being full aware, that they don't want you to have a nice Linux experience as the other vendors do. Muh games fps is just a nail in the coffin.

Nvidia do care about Linux. Almost all of their cloud/AI sales run Linux. So CUDA normally works, but the graphics drivers themselves are crap. If I were to specify a system most likely to "just work" with Nvidia, I'd probably go for whatever version of CentOS FB, Google and Amazon use internally.

As you wrote, they might care about their cloud and AI sales, but for linux desktop and OOTB experience? If they do, they hide it very well.

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#166

When looking at Linux support I start with the Linux Vendor Firmware Service [1]. If the model I’m looking at isn’t supported then it’s off my list. You’ll notice that not all Thinkpads are supported [2]. The E, L and Yoga series are not supported but the T, P and X series are. [1] https://fwupd.org/ [2] https://fwupd.org/lvfs/search?&value=thinkpad

Some Thinkpads that are not supported provide bootable isos that you can use to update your bios. It is my understanding that it also updates the firmware (but it doesn't explicitly say).

Here is an E model that has a bootable iso: https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netb...

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#167

I have a Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga that claims to be certified by both Lenovo and Canonical for Ubuntu. Finger print sensor doesn't work, the fans are super loud all the time, audio doesn't work (requires a newer Linux kernel than the one shipped in the latest Ubuntu), EFI problems, sleep, hibernate, fast-boot, restore from hibernate problems, battery life on Linux is horrible... So at least the certification for Ubuntu i…

I have an older X1 yoga. I haven't tried to make the fingerprint sensor work, but the rest works quite well. Especially after I updated the firmware with fwupd. It's not my first Thinkpad running Linux, and the prior two ran quite well.

Most fingerprint sensors I've run into on laptops use the Broadcom Security Processor, which Broadcom has emphatically stated they will never support Linux for. Just a straight up no on the driver front, and the thing is purposely designed to be a black box so reverse engineering is a huge effort.

For what its worth however they didn't work all that great in Windows either. The sensor was pretty picky about your thumb being absolutely dry and spotless and getting the swipe speed just right. I found it less convenient than just typing in a password. When I switched the laptops to Linux and discovered that the driver situation was hopeless I wasn't too broken up.

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#168
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the certification it states testing was done on kernel version 5.0.0-1015-oem-osp1. Are you using that kernel version? If not, use Ukuu or some other method and install it

To be fair, if hardware really only worked with a specific version of the Linux kernel, that wouldn't exactly scream quality either. You'd be stuck without being able to update for security or for any new hardware support. As a troubleshooting step, trying with the specific kernel version that was used for the certification might of course work.

It usually means they hacked in some hardware support for that one particular kernel but didn't upstream it. This is how hardware companies seem to prefer to operate. Release a product (including the drivers) and then forget about it. Maintenance is a drag and getting patches accepted upstream is too much work, plus they might come back to you and ask you to fix stuff in your code later, which isn't in the budget.

Windows bends over backwards to try to support old code. If you have something with Vista drivers there's a decent chance you can get it working in Windows 10, unless they were 32 bit only drivers. Even if you supply the source code (gasp shock! Unheard of!) you still end up chasing Kernel ABI changes from time to time.

For an example, I have an old Canon LiDE 35 scanner that I use from time to time. On Linux it just works as part of the huge SANE bundle. On Windows all I have are ancient 32 bit drivers that don't work on Windows 10, but if you download the Windows 7 x64 drivers for the LiDE 60 and hack some strings you can get it to work. A complete reversal in the amount of technical wizardry necessary to get it working over the course of about 10 years.

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#169
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not sure what you are talking about. Literally the parent post, emphasis mine: > Graphics drivers and WiFi drivers never worked without significant pampering for me in Ubuntu, and I've been using Linux for 15 years. Just last week I updated my working Nvidia drivers for my RTX 2070 card via Ubuntus GUI and lo and behold after restart the screen is just black . So which is it?

I was commenting on "I still do not understand, why you folks with Nvidia hardware expect it to work out of the box in Linux" It does work out of the box for most people. Of course there are people with problems. But overall you can expect Nvidia to work out of the box. There are loads of people gaming (Steam) and CUDA programming on Linux boxes. So I don't understand why I should not expect Nvidia to work on Linux.…

Once upon a time, when I was waiting for the delivery of the just-announced AMD Vega - which took a while, due to interest miners had in AMD GPUs at the time - I had a loaner GTX1080.

I can tell you, it was not something that worked OOTB. Distributions that shipped Nouveau at least did boot into GUI, but since I have 4k display, it was extremely slow. Unusable slow. It is not due to Nouveau not trying; they couldn't ship the signed firmware files they needed for reclocking.

So after switching to lower-resolution mode, I was able to install the system. Then I could install the proprietary driver. Aside the fact that it ignores Linux APIs/doesn't play nice with Wayland (what would you say about driver for Windows, that ignores WDDM and instead ships it's own display server?), it worked quite nice... until the first kernel update. So yeah, DKMS took the care about rebuild, it just took extra time at the first boot with the new kernel, and I could only hope that the new kernel doesn't break whatever building the shim expects, leaving me with a text console and taking next hour or two for me fixing it. Or that something else breaks, like that nvidia update, that killed X server in the process, which took down the terminal with yum that was running that update, resulting in me spending about two hours fixing the resulting mess. Another downsides were that I had to install compiler tools (which I usually do not have installed, or at least not outside of containers) and telling bye-bye to Secure Boot. So yes, it works, if you tinker. Not the kind of tinkering because you are in the mood, but the kind of tinkering that you have to, because something broke again.

Contrast that with AMD or Intel cards: they work out of the box with any modern distribution. You don't have to install anything; everything needed is already part of the distro. You can also update your system without fear, that something breaks, the updates come with your system updates, modules are signed by your distro and load in Secure Boot mode. Wrt. drivers, it is a Mac-like experience, you can forget that anything called drivers exists, stuff just works. It is something I can give to my parents, leave updates enabled and still be assured, that it won't break exactly at the time I cannot visit them and fix stuff for them.

And it is something that the Linux community can't do anything about. Nvidia keeps their cards close to the chest and won't allow the community to improve the situation. There's a reason why Linus has shown Nvidia the finger.

So in the closing: unless we two have vastly different ideas about what works out of the box means, no, Nvidia doesn't work out of the box. All the people gaming and running CUDA with Nvidia have to tinker.

Re: Lenovo to Certify ThinkPad and ThinkStation Workstation Portfolio for Linux

#170

I have a Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga that claims to be certified by both Lenovo and Canonical for Ubuntu. Finger print sensor doesn't work, the fans are super loud all the time, audio doesn't work (requires a newer Linux kernel than the one shipped in the latest Ubuntu), EFI problems, sleep, hibernate, fast-boot, restore from hibernate problems, battery life on Linux is horrible... So at least the certification for Ubuntu i…

> If you want to buy a Linux laptop, avoid Lenovo like the plague. They have absolutely zero quality assurance for Linux. I had the exact opposite experience. Perhaps it's a Unbuntu thing, hard to know, I use Fedora, or perhaps it's the Yoga... In 2004 I got a T42, installed Fedora on it, it just worked. In 2013 I got a T440p, installed Fedora, just worked. That Laptop is still in use, btw. This year I got a X1 Extre…

"X1 Extreme Gen2 (...) just works"

Literally? I can't even beat the installer because of the GPU. (Vanilla Fedora)

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