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Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

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Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#201

Post by kebman »

someguyorother wrote: post #191
kebman wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes. The majority that forced Socrates to drink poison.

If democracy is majority dictatorship, then why do constitutions provide rights also to the minority?

Thankfully, it's because a lof of politicians have read Socrates, and taken his lesson to heart; that majority rule is indeed dictatorial, and so we should strive to also let the minorities be heard. That doesn't mean it is always fair, though. Sometimes it also leads to minorities gaining dictatorial rights when they shouldn't.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#202

Post by macd »

bhupy wrote: post #182
rfulop wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with this argument. Capital gains should at least be taxed as much as earned income.

I completely agree with this in theory, we ought to just make capital gains be taxed at the same progressive tax brackets as income. That being said, how do we prevent people from just selling small amounts of capital every year, so as to stay below bracket thresholds?

Why do we want to prevent people from doing that?

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#203

Post by luckylion »

fsckboy wrote: post #171
markus_zhang wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was not the case for most careers out there? If you want a comfortable 9-5 job you generally join a giant and stay as long as possible.

that's not what he's saying. He's saying higher overall income, and it comes with lower risk than startups.

But that's also expected, isn't it? Startups are like playing the lottery, those that win will suddenly have much, much, much more than your average person that puts their money into savings instead. But a big part of those playing the lottery will never win, and on average those who just invest their money will be better off than those who play the lottery.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#204

Post by luckylion »

cvlasdkv wrote: post #188
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah usually the more fun job pays less. That’s just basic economics. Life is all about trade offs.

There is nothing inherent in "basic economics" that postulates that fulfilling or fun jobs pay less. I also find the idea of "basic economics" laughable given how impossible economics is in the first place. I mean, yes, if you assume spherical cows...

> There is nothing inherent in "basic economics" that postulates that fulfilling or fun jobs pay less.

It kinda is, isn't it? The fun, fulfilling job is one that everybody is happy to do. The boring, soul-devouring job is where you need to encourage people to do it by offering more money.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#205

Post by eli_gottlieb »

technotony wrote: post #158
jtr1 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an argument a lot of non-authoritarian socialists make: democracy only governs the few hours when people are not sleeping or at work, so a deeper, fuller democracy would include running workplaces democratically as well. Whether by employee-elected boards, cooperatives, democratically run unions (a necessary distinction), or some other form of collective control, that the consent of the governed is a question…

This comes up a lot, nobody is literally chained to their desks. Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people, but it's also not slavery and generally the arc of worker rights is improving through time. You could make a case that some of the current anger in the united states is because COVID's destruction…

>Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company.

Democracy is about voice, not exit.

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#206

Post by burrows »

chillacy wrote: post #179
lanevorockz wrote: post #59

Trying to break the conditioning here but government should always tax in a way that it incentive WORK. The way things are Wealth is no longer being produced, so those who have it will be on top because income will never be enough to prop you up. Therefore we should want a Growth market so that more wealth is produced and risk averse people will still be rich but more people will become as rich as them. To resolve In…

I'm with you but substitute WORK for Value Creation. It's way to easy to "create jobs" which are essentially busy-work with 0 to negative productivity. In the coming decades, economic productivity will become more and more important as gains from elsewhere start to taper out.

> It's way to easy to "create jobs" which are essentially busy-work with 0 to negative productivity.

If firms have workers with negative productivity, aren't executives incentivized to fire them?

And if so, why are there negative-productivity workers?

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#207

Post by wpietri »

technotony wrote: post #158
jtr1 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an argument a lot of non-authoritarian socialists make: democracy only governs the few hours when people are not sleeping or at work, so a deeper, fuller democracy would include running workplaces democratically as well. Whether by employee-elected boards, cooperatives, democratically run unions (a necessary distinction), or some other form of collective control, that the consent of the governed is a question…

This comes up a lot, nobody is literally chained to their desks. Democracy in the workplace comes from voting with your feet and taking another job at another company. It's not perfect, particularly for lower income people, but it's also not slavery and generally the arc of worker rights is improving through time. You could make a case that some of the current anger in the united states is because COVID's destruction…

I don't think, "we've mostly gotten rid of actual leg irons" is the paen to worker's rights you think it is. To the extent slavery was outlawed, that happened 150 years ago. In many ways, things have gotten worse for the average worker since that era. (If you don't believe me, read Lincoln himself. [1])

Fair conditions grow out of equal power. But a fundamental problem with managerialist capitalism is an imbalance of power that will never be solved with vote-with-your-feet slogans. You have one job. A CEO has tens, hundreds, thousands of employees. It's always easier for a boss to fuck you over than it is for you to push back. Individual action is not enough to fix that.

[1] Foner's "The Firey Trial" is a good look at Lincoln's ideas, including what he has to say about labor. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044XV6G6/

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#208

Post by bhupy »

macd wrote: post #202
bhupy wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with this in theory, we ought to just make capital gains be taxed at the same progressive tax brackets as income. That being said, how do we prevent people from just selling small amounts of capital every year, so as to stay below bracket thresholds?

Why do we want to prevent people from doing that?

Because it defeats the purpose of a progressive capital gains tax?

If the concern is that someone is paying less in tax off $250,000 in capital gains when they realize their wealth than someone who is paid a wage of $250,000, the policy prescription (with which I agree), is to tax $250,000 capital gains like income, I.e. at the top marginal tax rate.

What happens if I liquidate $50,000 at a time over the course of 5 years, and continue to pay a net effective tax of around ~20%, which is what the long term capital gains tax is, today?

Re: Declining worker power vs. rising monopoly power: explaining recent macro trends

#210

Post by burrows »

cvlasdkv wrote: post #192
fsckboy wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no reexamination necessary, I'm drawn to emulate and recommend the humans that work hard toward long term goals. I like when Darwinism shows tangible progress against entropy rather than producing viruses that leech off of life.

What long term goal is slaving away at McDonalds or Wal-Mart accomplishing? All the people advancing society are being paid pittances compared to the true leeches (landlords and shareholders). People should not be required to work to survive. People should be required to work to make the world a better place. Most people work bullshit jobs that do not advance anything but the wealth of the 1%.

> People should not be required to work to survive.

What does "be required" mean?

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