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Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

blog.cerebralab.com

101–110 of 350 posts

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#101
This paragraph would lead me to believe that the author may not have tried setting up a company and hiring abroad:

"There's probably some added legal hassle and maybe even accounting-related hassle, but it doesn't seem significant (arguably even less in some situation, since people from other countries can work as contractors rather than employees)."

As programmers we'd like the simplest possible implementation of hiring: I would like to post a job offer for role x at salary y regardless of hiring location.

The reality of implementing that as a business in a compliant manner - involving international payment methods, tax reporting implications across multiple jurisdictions, legal implications, etc do not strike me as trivial -- if you're a small company they're time-consuming and require expensive consulting, and if you're a large company it may be difficult to get your internal tools and processes to align with them.

I'd love to be proven wrong, and would like these systems to be simpler and fairer. They certainly shouldn't be torn down until the positive reasons for their existence are understood and handled.

I feel like many common narratives around 'programmers can work from anywhere' come from a naive point of view and rarely include details about how to compliantly achieve those results, from either the business or individual's point of view.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> go through a regulatory gauntlet A lot of people like to point to regulations and licensing as a source of inefficiency, but in reality the lack of any sort of professional licensing around programming drives all sorts of alternate inefficiency: with no objective standard to measure applicants against, employers are stuck trying to make up their own, usually broken standards.

The lack of violently enforced standards doesn’t mean there are “no objective standards”, nor does violently enforcing a standard like they do in medicine make it an objective standard (see: how careless and dogmatic your typical MD is)

Agreed. For better or for worse there is a "standard of care" that is a solid legal basis for lawsuits and a lot of decision making stems from it. "It's what's in the textbooks and established, and I can't be sued for doing it."

But the flip side, using newer research, may fix incorrect/suboptimal diagnosis or treatment, but can also fail.

I'm of course sidestepping the "I'm an MD and am right, and you're a layperson and don't know medicine" mentality, but to be fair, there are fewer of these in the newer generation of MD/DO/healthcare providers.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#103
post #13

It seems to be missing a very big factor: culture. If your goal is to implement some code for, say, healthcare, it is a lot easier to explain the business process to someone who is already familiar with how stuff is done on a higher level. Whenever you hire someone from a different culture / country, you need to start from the basics by explaining the very core of your society. An American programmer might not be too…

Yup.

Worked in healthcare IT in the USA. Beans counters were utterly determined to send our work overseas. Old story of training our replacements.

We could teach them programming, testing, our stack.

But we couldn't teach them our healthcare system. Stupid small stuff that challenged us were completely opaque to our colleagues. Stuff like definitions of "visit" vs "episodes of care" and how each customer had different rules. (Made worse by sharing data between orgs.)

(My billion dollar idea was to help our counterparts adapt our stack for their local markets. India, Malaysia, and Vietnam have healthcare too, right? Get in on the ground floor of those emerging markets. Alas.)

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#104
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they've emigrated in search of those higher salaries already. I used to work in a relatively "low salary programming culture" and it wasn't just the salary that sucked in that location, the programmers did too. Smart people either emigrated or ventured into a profession that made $$$ (typically real estate, management or finance). Eventually I left too.

Out of curiosity if I may ask, in which country did this happen and to which profession did you move after?

Singapore. I'm still a software developer. Just not there.

It's ironic that the country had a serious case of silicon Valley envy and would try literally anything to clone some of that valley magic. They threw a lot of money around in pursuit of this goal.

They'd try anything, that is, other than decent, internationally competitive pay and working conditions.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another aspect of culture: how one-sided the communication is. Silicon Valley and Scandinavian cultures are very flat, so it is possible for "the man on the floor" to tell management that it doesn't work to put diesel into a gasoline car. In authoritarian cultures this would be a mistake as it's seen as embarrassing the management by saying they made a mistake. If you want to continue being employed then it is much b…

An authoritarian culture, however, can get work done much quicker while staying with a razor-sharp focus. The whole "democratic" decision-making process takes time and leads to a sequence of decisions spread throughout the time domain, which, taken together, might lead to a suboptimal result compared to what might be achieved by following the steps of an "enlightened benevolent dictator".

"An authoritarian culture, however, can get work done much quicker while staying with a razor-sharp focus."

Disagree. A team can be coached to commit to a common goal.

A dysfunctional authoritarian culture is probably faster than a dysfunctional democracy, for sure. But then you are comparing which broken system is less broken, not what would be the optimal setup.

Take a sports team. They are not micromanaged. They are given a common task, a common strategy, guidance, but in the field they are alone.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#106
post #13

It seems to be missing a very big factor: culture. If your goal is to implement some code for, say, healthcare, it is a lot easier to explain the business process to someone who is already familiar with how stuff is done on a higher level. Whenever you hire someone from a different culture / country, you need to start from the basics by explaining the very core of your society. An American programmer might not be too…

Wait, hold on. Won't this be easily mitigated by a native programmer tech lead working overseas?

Say I was born in X (low income) and raised there, and then move to Y (high income) and work there as a programmer for several years, then it should be easy for me to hire programmers from X and be the bridge to management at Y?

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#107
I think one of the failures in thinking around project cost and outcome is that not enough people realize that the effort around a project scales logarithmically, not linearly. This really means that small projects don't "scale down" as much as you think they do. Some for instances - You are not really going to spend only 1% of the time in meetings for a $10K project compared to a $1M project. There might well be 100X the code but it's neither going to be 100X as complex nor take 100X the the man-hours to write. A couple of the "Challenging" features might be substantially more challenging in the $1M project, but not 100X so, nor will there be 100X as many. Most importantly, is that in the $10K project the expectation isn't that you'll get 1% of the quality... but that's exactly what often gets sacrificed in order to make a $10K project cost ~ $10K.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#108
post #13

It seems to be missing a very big factor: culture. If your goal is to implement some code for, say, healthcare, it is a lot easier to explain the business process to someone who is already familiar with how stuff is done on a higher level. Whenever you hire someone from a different culture / country, you need to start from the basics by explaining the very core of your society. An American programmer might not be too…

Another aspect of culture: how one-sided the communication is. Silicon Valley and Scandinavian cultures are very flat, so it is possible for "the man on the floor" to tell management that it doesn't work to put diesel into a gasoline car. In authoritarian cultures this would be a mistake as it's seen as embarrassing the management by saying they made a mistake. If you want to continue being employed then it is much b…

Business culture in the US is also quite authoritarian. There have been decades of strategic peeling away of labor rights to put labor in a more leveraged situation, leading to restricted freedoms. Sure, you can tell your manager/director/CIO/CTO their choice is idiotic but the fact is, you'll be fired instantly and depending on circumstances, you may be in a bad situation financially and future career wise. The very hierarchical structure is authoritarian with layers of authority built in.

Most people are very hesitant about giving honest feedback even in US businesses because of these pressuring forces. If your manager wants to put diesel in a gasoline car, you often have to agree, then have a sidebar conversation directly with that person so their negligence, ignorant mistake, or intentional malice isn't put on a large group or public display.

Very few US workers are in positions to give blunt feedback. This was pretty common in software development due to leverage developers had but it's, IMHO, been on decline.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An authoritarian culture, however, can get work done much quicker while staying with a razor-sharp focus. The whole "democratic" decision-making process takes time and leads to a sequence of decisions spread throughout the time domain, which, taken together, might lead to a suboptimal result compared to what might be achieved by following the steps of an "enlightened benevolent dictator".

There is certainly a reason many cultures gravitate towards authoritarianism, focus is an important quality of productive teams and authoritarianism increases focus. However, too much focus relative to the complexity of the task at hand is never good, because focus requires ignoring some things. I would theorize that the more complex the task a team is working on, the less authoritarian it can afford its culture to b…

I have experience as a programmer in both worlds, and there are certainly pros and cons with each culture.

In an Eastern-European "authoritarian" (Bulgarian) setting, you are given tasks with not much room for interpretation and are expected to deliver a tangible "no-bullshit" result within a reasonable time frame. Not much time is spent on meetings, you don't want to ask too many questions, praise is won by delivering a technically-efficient solution which doesn't question the business intents and preconceptions of management.

In a North-Western European setting, everything is questionable and debatable, sometimes at irritating levels. Fairly incompetent people are raising their voice on insignificant matters and the decision-making debate changes direction quite sporadically. By everyone focusing too much on the business side, what you get is a technically-mediocre product which solves many problems to many people, but doesn't have much value as an integral part.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#110
Isn't open source proof that you don't need buts in seats in the same office? If open source projects can do it, why can't most businesses? What's the limiting factor in business? Is it communication? Is it antiquated management practices?

Any organization that designs a system (defined broadly) will produce a design whose structure is a copy of the organization's communication structure.

— Melvin E. Conway

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