US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
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Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#2The police seemingly operate with impunity. If you accuse them, they will deny wrongdoing. Trying to gaslight people about their tactics seems like par for the course.
The question is: who will police the police? They can't be trusted to police themselves as we're seeing.
Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#3Pretty consistent with what we know of Park Police in and around DC. The shooting of Bijan Ghaisar, in this case, went unpunished by the feds:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/us-park-p...
Though props to Fairfax for seeking indictments and for releasing the footage in the face of Park Police silence.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2019/12/18/fairfax-...
Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#4The police seemingly operate with impunity. If you accuse them, they will deny wrongdoing. Trying to gaslight people about their tactics seems like par for the course. The question is: who will police the police? They can't be trusted to police themselves as we're seeing.
If the President can behave that way why can't they..
Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#5The police seemingly operate with impunity. If you accuse them, they will deny wrongdoing. Trying to gaslight people about their tactics seems like par for the course. The question is: who will police the police? They can't be trusted to police themselves as we're seeing.
One thing I find fascinating about the USA, from the outside, is the preoccupation with the rituals of democracy (and simultaneous disenfranchisement and gerrymandering). A huge number of public posts that in the UK would be handled as run-of-the-mill employment seem to be voted on in the States. Surely that is the nominated mechanism of mandate and subsequent accountability?
In the UK we have policing by consent which more or less means the police systems works because as a country we want it to, rather than that they have a union and weapons. We've recently experimented with elected police commissionsers which, to many, seemed a very alien concept.
Our police's history is far from squeaky clean (we have our fair share of corruption, institutional racism and so on), but in general, no-one walks around worrying that they will be murdered with impunity. Not perfect but preferable.
I think the question is as much how you get there as much as where you're heading.
Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#6The police seemingly operate with impunity. If you accuse them, they will deny wrongdoing. Trying to gaslight people about their tactics seems like par for the course. The question is: who will police the police? They can't be trusted to police themselves as we're seeing.
One thing I find fascinating about the USA, from the outside, is the preoccupation with the rituals of democracy (and simultaneous disenfranchisement and gerrymandering). A huge number of public posts that in the UK would be handled as run-of-the-mill employment seem to be voted on in the States. Surely that is the nominated mechanism of mandate and subsequent accountability? In the UK we have policing by consent whi…
Step 1 is disarm the police..
UK police aren't armed, which means that they are well trained in de-escalation because it's the main thing that's protecting them.
One of the biggest worries of introducing tasers is that it diminishes that aspect. Why try to calm someone down if you can reach for your taser instead.
In the US they reach for a handgun instead.
Disarm the police. That might require disarming the population too.
So step 1 is ban the guns.
Which tragically means the USA will likely stay at step 0 for a very long time, because it seems the second amendment is held to a higher regard than the first.
Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#7Earlier quoted context omitted.
One thing I find fascinating about the USA, from the outside, is the preoccupation with the rituals of democracy (and simultaneous disenfranchisement and gerrymandering). A huge number of public posts that in the UK would be handled as run-of-the-mill employment seem to be voted on in the States. Surely that is the nominated mechanism of mandate and subsequent accountability? In the UK we have policing by consent whi…
Step 1 is disarm the police.. UK police aren't armed, which means that they are well trained in de-escalation because it's the main thing that's protecting them. One of the biggest worries of introducing tasers is that it diminishes that aspect. Why try to calm someone down if you can reach for your taser instead. In the US they reach for a handgun instead. Disarm the police. That might require disarming the populati…
Some of the most calm Americans I know have a gun or two, it's so normal. Given America is where it is, I can't see how you take that first step. That's the deadlock.
Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#8The police seemingly operate with impunity. If you accuse them, they will deny wrongdoing. Trying to gaslight people about their tactics seems like par for the course. The question is: who will police the police? They can't be trusted to police themselves as we're seeing.
One thing I find fascinating about the USA, from the outside, is the preoccupation with the rituals of democracy (and simultaneous disenfranchisement and gerrymandering). A huge number of public posts that in the UK would be handled as run-of-the-mill employment seem to be voted on in the States. Surely that is the nominated mechanism of mandate and subsequent accountability? In the UK we have policing by consent whi…
there are a couple of criminological issues too which are important with regards to UK and USA.
Concept of punishment - in the USA punishment is most often about vengeance, retribution and restitution. It's why victims families can watch the criminal get executed when on death row. In many other countries and the UK there is no death penalty, and punishment is more about the deprivation of liberty of the criminal and less or not at all about restitution of the victim. Victims in the UK don't really get much of a look in outside of a victim statement in court after sentencing. Criminals are prosecuted by the Crown and not on behalf of the victim. In the USA it's common for civil cases to be used to get more restitution against criminals. A stronger example would be looking at Scandinavian countries and their approach to prison and punishment and rehabilitation.
Police self defence - in the USA, the police are allowed to use deadly force to defend themselves and their buddies against danger, which explains the more liberal use of guns. Literally "shoot first and ask questions later" is allowed if the officer feels their life is in danger. But mainly the protection of the police is the most important thing, above the protection of the public. In the UK and someplaces elsewhere, the police consider pro-active self defence as not automatically allowed. They will often not engage and retreat and get backup in numbers if under danger. They do not rank self protection as the most important thing.
Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#9"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"
They want to say it was just smoke grenades and pepper balls... Which the CDC defines as "tear gas".
Re: US Park Police denies using tear gas on peaceful protesters
#10"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" They want to say it was just smoke grenades and pepper balls... Which the CDC defines as "tear gas".
Where does the CDC define pepper balls as "tear gas"? It defines them as "riot control agents" in this document https://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/riotcontrol/factsheet.asp saying that these are "sometimes referred to as “tear gas”"
The CDC defines chloroacetophenone (CN) as tear gas https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750...
Pepper balls contain oleoresin capsicum (OC) which is different in terms of its chemical composition but produces similar symptoms.
Depending on your definition, it may or may not be the same thing because "tear gas" is an unscientific term.