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Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

blog.cerebralab.com

21–30 of 350 posts

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#21
>3. Most "good" programmers move to the high-income countries

Your example of Germany and Switzerland in this case is less illustrative than say India and US - the poorest places automatically lose the best talent because the standard of living is not comparable even if you were earning the same remotely and had 1/10 living expenses. And then you factor in the quality of education available, projects available, etc. Juniors have a hard time getting remote jobs - so they are limited to local job market - and if most projects in your country are low end outsourcing jobs you get experienced in those vs. more demanding work.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#22
Embarrassment discount.

The theoretical benefits of offshoring are obvious: get the same thing for less. The same goes for juniorization, find a young guy who can do the same thing for less (this worked out great one time in an HFT I worked for).

Your problem is there's a chance -whether you offshored or not- that not only do you not get the same thing, you get a steaming pile that your boss will not appreciate. And it's not like a 80% working software solution is worth 80% of the money, it's worth maybe 20%.

So how do we compensate? Fall back on crutches like "we only hire Ivy League or Oxbridge grads". Or make sure whoever it is had a roughly similar culture to yourself (comms style, language), is available in a similar time zone, or has done similar work in the past. It's not that these will ensure you have good programmers, it's more that you can say to your boss, "I acted conservatively but even then sometimes you don't get the right hire".

All of which point towards advantaging programmers in the West. Either you have all these qualities (culture, tz, experience), or you have to discount quite a bit.

Naturally this isn't universal. You are gonna find people in Asia who somehow make a Western salary, and good on them.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#23
From the conclusion:

> One could argue a huge inefficiency still exists if you assume that offices are not useful and companies should always work&hire remotely (thus removing the cost of living from the picture).

> But in that case, I would at least expect office working to go away before we see any dent in the wage gap. However, a lot of companies seem to be set on office work. Whether or not this is a good thing, I don't know, I lean strongly towards "no" but that's a post for another time.

I've been a full-time telecommuter for 6 years: Offices aren't going away anytime soon. So many people need face-to-face communication with their colleagues. Even I need to travel to the office from time to time. I've always had a technical role; when the opportunity came to be a "manager" I rejected it because I just couldn't envision myself as a manager without being physically in the office at least 1-2 times a week.

So, if you ask me, the reason for the salary difference is because we need regular face-to-face contact with our peers.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#24
post #19
post #17

> Programming jobs are silly easy to move around and most of them can be done remotely. As long as you start with this hypothesis whatever analysis you do will be wrong. We do have problem coordinate between teams that share the same hall and the same boss, I cannot even imagine what would happen with complete remote team in Vietnam to save money. It would be just better to stop develop software ourselves. Now with C…

> We do have problem coordinate between teams that share the same hall and the same boss So perhaps proximity is not the issue?

The reality I see, is that all of us are overworked / with a lot of responsibilities. So it is easy to miss important emails or details.

As long as we are close to each other, very important things don't get lost.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#25
post #17

> Programming jobs are silly easy to move around and most of them can be done remotely. As long as you start with this hypothesis whatever analysis you do will be wrong. We do have problem coordinate between teams that share the same hall and the same boss, I cannot even imagine what would happen with complete remote team in Vietnam to save money. It would be just better to stop develop software ourselves. Now with C…

I agree that’s the current state, but someone is going to crack it sooner or later. As the article implies, there’s a trillion dollars riding on it. Programming is my only skill, so after that happens I guess I’ll just go live in the forest.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#26
post #8

This is an odd analysis, because as it highlights, salaries are strongly correlated with wealth of the country. So the question really becomes, not why are salaries different, but "why is programming difficult to offshore". If programming was easy to import and export then either salaries would even out or, more likely, would be relocated to cheaper countries like many kinds of manufacturing. But software is difficul…

Turns out, the hard part of software is figuring out what to build. The rest is cheap in comparison, whether done in SF or Bangalore.

(Product) managers decide what to build. Engineers decide how to build it. You make it sound as if software engineering has no value. Clearly this isn't true as small local banks will have awful sites and apps despite the problem statement being pretty clear cut. The most successful tech companies also happen to be the ones that have attracted the top engineering talent. Generally, ime, an engineer you pay $150k is worth more than two engineers at $75k.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#28

This is an odd analysis, because as it highlights, salaries are strongly correlated with wealth of the country. So the question really becomes, not why are salaries different, but "why is programming difficult to offshore". If programming was easy to import and export then either salaries would even out or, more likely, would be relocated to cheaper countries like many kinds of manufacturing. But software is difficul…

> why is programming difficult to offshore"

Lack of professionalism and absence of a professional engineering culture in many of the places you'd seek to outsource to save money.

Doesn't mean that professionalism doesn't exist, it's just that the ones that have it are already busy with their own thing and not interested in being low-cost labor

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#29
post #24
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We do have problem coordinate between teams that share the same hall and the same boss So perhaps proximity is not the issue?

The reality I see, is that all of us are overworked / with a lot of responsibilities. So it is easy to miss important emails or details. As long as we are close to each other, very important things don't get lost.

Slack (or similar) seems to be filling this void. The tap on the shoulder, “hey, did you notice this?”

The problem is, you can have 10-20 people tapping you on the shoulder all at once.

Re: Is a trillion dollars’ worth of programming lying on the ground?

#30
Is it just me, or does the link lead to a different article, "Imaginary Problems Are the Root of Bad Software" sometimes? I tried opening the link and it sometimes goes to the one titled like this post, sometimes to the other one - for the same URL.

This seems like a very ironic problem when considering the content of the "alternate" article being presented... Example of an excerpt: "The problem is that you thought you requested a core product with a couple of extra features, if they were easy enough to implement. Meanwhile, the dev team heard something else. They heard about some exciting challenges they could tackle… and a slew of boring, basic features they couldn’t be bothered to test properly or care about."

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