Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28 • Hacker News Board

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#691

Post by yyyk » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:36 AM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #405

rhino369 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no reason why it can't be "black people being killed by cops like this MUST stop" and "the rioting and looting MUST stop." Buried in your reasoning is the idea that the rioting and looting is helping reducing black deaths by cops. I see no reason to believe that. First, its directly putting people into violent conflict with police. So additional black people have been killed by police caused by the rioting.…

Rioting and looting don't generally kill people. Cops do kill people, time and time again, and they usually get away with it. That's why it is absurd to equate the two. "There was a consensus that what happened to George Floyd was an atrocity." Who cares? Thinking something is an atrocity accomplished precisely jack shit. Peaceful protests get ignored or mocked. Police forces continue to get more militarized. Far rig…

"Rioting and looting don't generally kill people... Peaceful protests get ignored or mocked."

Can you find a large episode of rioting and looting without any death toll? Even the 2011 London riots led to the deaths of five people.

The bigger issue though is that the current situation is starting to turn counterproductive. The only way to eventually fix things is with politics. Protests are politics.

But violence eventually takes a life of its own. Already now there are overwhelming evidence various third party actors are interfering. Soon this turns into an order vs chaos issue, and guess in who's favour that framing would play out?

The protests can no longer be ignored, now is the time to step back and to do whatever can be done to make this peaceful - before people forget why the protests started in the first place.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#692

Post by freeone3000 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:37 AM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #400

staticassertion wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You decided you were better off without me, fine, save your own store. For what it's worth, this is why people hate cops! No one said anything about all cops being worthless, and you're saying that victims of crimes deserve it for not praising police brutality.

The expectation of the public is that police should prioritize deterrence and investigation of property crimes above assembling a massive show of force to deprive peaceful protesters of their 1st amendment rights to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition government for redress of their grievances. Cops that are busy kettling up protesters for later official intimidation and violence are not available to…

Right, but then why have the police at all?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#693

Post by freeone3000 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:42 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #649

jascii wrote: post #133

Disclaimer: I am a bleeding heart liberal and this may filter my observations. I have been to a few rallies/vigils/marches lately and all incidences of violence that I have witnessed either in person or through media has been instigated by the police. As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the…

>As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the crowd. Question to Americans: if the police really are acting this badly, why aren't y'all exercising your second amendment rights to defend yourselves? My naive understanding as a foreigner is that it's exactly what the second amendment is supposed…

They're wearing full bulletproof vests, shields, helmets, and drive up in armored personel carriers. What, pray tell, would a semiauto rifle do against that, other than get you killed?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#694

Post by vinay427 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:47 AM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #233

colllectorof wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the police is desperately trying to set a narrative to justify a history of violence by escalating more violence, but please, someone, restore my faith Seems fairly accurate. I'm just annoyed that many people can't grasp that awful police behavior and awful behavior from other actors are not mutually exclusive. There is lots of unjustified police violence and provocations against perfectly peaceful protestors. There…

One of the sides mentioned has a monopoly on the lawful use of force. Shouldn't we expect better from them in return?

One side of this coin is that the police have a monopoly on lawful force and therefore should be held to a higher standard. The other side seems to me that police derive their tasks from laws (handed down by the same institutions) and a certain degree of pressure is therefore accorded to enforce said laws.

I agree that we should expect better from the police and authorities in return, but also that we accept their use of limited force (even when not physically harmful) when necessary as the means to do so.

I personally lean towards presumably the same direction as you: that police should first and foremost be held to a higher standard before their legitimacy is accepted. However, I think it's not that far from the views of some that see their role in this conflict as imposing harsh law and order.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#695

Post by pbourke » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 6:59 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #649

jascii wrote: post #133

Disclaimer: I am a bleeding heart liberal and this may filter my observations. I have been to a few rallies/vigils/marches lately and all incidences of violence that I have witnessed either in person or through media has been instigated by the police. As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the…

>As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the crowd. Question to Americans: if the police really are acting this badly, why aren't y'all exercising your second amendment rights to defend yourselves? My naive understanding as a foreigner is that it's exactly what the second amendment is supposed…

> Question to Americans: if the police really are acting this badly, why aren't y'all exercising your second amendment rights to defend yourselves?

Because that is a fever dream. The reality is that if you use a firearm on the police you get killed on the spot or it turns into a siege and you are killed some time later.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#696

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 7:03 AM UTC

DiffEq wrote: post #626

dang wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between this attack and the flamebait in your other comments, you're crossing into bannable territory. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.

An Attack? Pointing out the truth is an attack and flame bait? I see - only the hive mind is allowed.

"Do you have a reading comprehension disability" is plainly an attack.

"Pointing out the truth" can certainly be an attack or flamebait. It depends on which truth and how it's used. One middle schooler "pointing out" the acne on another's face can be quite an attack. The hardest substance (truth) makes the sharpest weapon. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23381247 on the "it's just facts" defense, the most beloved of trolls.

For example, let's assume that your comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23396054 was factual and that George Floyd was intoxicated when he was killed. Bringing that up in this context, as if it somehow mitigates anything about his killing, is certainly flamebait, true or not.

Re "I see - only the hive mind is allowed" - that's also a common response. Everyone always feels like the mods are against them, secretly siding with the opposition: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... We oppose your favorite sports team too, and conspire with the highway patrol to make sure it's always you who gets the speeding ticket.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#697

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 7:10 AM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #282

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think it's curious that only the police are allowed to have these super-effective unions with literal stay-out-of-jail clauses in their contracts - while Amazon workers who want proper toilet breaks will simply be fired? Does that answer your question?

That's about public v. private unions, not really about cops v. everyone else. Companies can fairly easily break a union. After call, why does Ford need a Detroit plant when they can use Mexico. But governments are lead by politicians who get money from unions. Union supports leader, leader pays union, union supports leader. No incentive to keep costs down at all. It's actually better for politicians to have strong p…

>But governments are lead by politicians who get money from unions. Union supports leader, leader pays union, union supports leader. No incentive to keep costs down at all.

Hence the US states' and cities' unfunded pension debt crisis. Only solution to it in democracies is for non government employees to actively participate in local elections.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#698

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 7:15 AM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #510

viraptor wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand why the protests started though, right? It's not like the protesters can say "ok, if we stop protesting now, will you please consider following the law?" How to you expect protesters to deescalate this with absolutely nothing changing and high level LE people still not accepting any blame and pushing for military help?

You understand why US cops are so heavy handed though, right? It may be because they have to deal with a population with 3 guns per capita, where the amount of police killed per year on duty(even disregarding accidents) is more akin to a third world country than anything going on in the EU. > and high level LE people still not accepting any blame I don't know how you get that from OP saying that both sides need to de…

Charming.

Cops don’t need to stomp on peoples necks till they asphyxiate to feel safe at work.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#699

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 7:18 AM UTC

adjkant wrote: post #381

kortilla wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stopping traffic risks the lives of people in ambulances so it’s pretty hard to condone that. Make noise, block access to some businesses, etc, but don’t block streets and cause traffic jams that could kill people FFS.

Protests have been regularly shown to let emergency vehicles through, I saw videos of this yesterday.

[deleted]

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#700

Post by 1123581321 » Wed, Jun 03, 2020, 7:30 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #290

dmix wrote: post #284

This policy introduced into congress sounds like a helpful solution: > "Ending Qualified Immunity Act," which would allow civil lawsuits against police, a recourse that the Supreme Court has all but done away with. https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/06/01/us/politics/01reu... That plus the laundry list of obvious issues with criminal justice that any defense attorney could list off hand.

Is qualified immunity really the issue? The general impression I have is that PDs/DAs straight up refuse to investigate/prosecute abuses of power. It's not like we have a bunch of cases where the case was airtight, but the officer was being acquitted because of qualified immunity.

Civil torts are a check on the criminal prosecution system when it becomes too lenient.