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Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

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521–530 of 835 posts

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#521

I had been heartened by the right's recent upswing in fierce support for the first amendment, but unfortunately I've seen little of that support during the protests as freedom of assembly and freedom of the press have been attacked. For example Rand Paul has not tweeted in a week. Sadly, as always, these kind of principled arguments, on both sides, are a sham to advance whatever the partisan battle of the week is.

To his credit Justin Amash has been very active in speaking out against government and police actions the past week or so.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't just claim it. Supply the verification.

The onus to supply verification is on the person making the claim. Hitchen's razor: What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

in general yes, but if someone says something is "verifiably false", you might expect them to at least provide some clues as to how that could be verified.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Suggesting that unfettered capitalism is resulting in extreme wealth inequality assumes we live in a system of unfettered capitalism. Which we don't, not even close.

It's pretty damn minimally fettered.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#524
post #479
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your of course assuming that ambulance services don't track the protests and route around them as much as possible.

There is absolutely no need for emergency services to track pop-up protests, the very notion is absurd. We don't have the right to block traffic to promote our political opinions. When protestors block traffic, if the city decides they have to go, and they won't - in those situations, it's the protesters who are 'instigating', not the police. NRA 2cnd amendment protestors, pro/anti-abortion protestors, anti-capitalis…

> I would like to invite anyone to define exactly under what conditions people think they have the right to stop traffic at major intersections for hours on end, other than of course signalling to the city beforehand.

When peaceful protests have failed to affect change and police brutality (especially for POC) is continuing unabated.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand why the protests started though, right? It's not like the protesters can say "ok, if we stop protesting now, will you please consider following the law?" How to you expect protesters to deescalate this with absolutely nothing changing and high level LE people still not accepting any blame and pushing for military help?

You understand why US cops are so heavy handed though, right? It may be because they have to deal with a population with 3 guns per capita, where the amount of police killed per year on duty(even disregarding accidents) is more akin to a third world country than anything going on in the EU. > and high level LE people still not accepting any blame I don't know how you get that from OP saying that both sides need to de…

I meant that LE is largely not accepting any blame right now. That's a signal for protest not to deescalate.

But since you mention that, cops do not have to be heavy handed. Training around handling mental health helps. Training around de-escalation helps. Not being a murdering racist helps. Body cameras work.

If the guns were the main reason, we'd see similar reactions every time a group of open-carry white protesters show up on the streets. They're not treated the same way though.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how certain types of people offer the false choice of unjust and unaccountable police or no police at all. I guess it's too much to ask that police obey the law they are supposed to be enforcing. This is why the country is in flames right now.

I’m not sure why you made this comment. As far as I can see, nobody is doing your first sentence, and we all agree on the second. Police should definitely obey the law!

> You decided you were better off without me, fine, save your own store.

How should we have read this sentence?

Why couldn't you have instead said, "You decided you were better off without a shitty abusive police officer, fine, call me or other police instead." ?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly wish there was anyone in Washington who seemed willing or able to lead in a bipartisan manner. Someone who didn't rely on the partisan firestorm of the week to get support. It's all very disheartening, and hard to explain to my children.

I wish we could ban political parties (pipe dream I know). What positive are they doing for us at this juncture?

The first step is encouraging local governments to switch away from first-past-the-post voting, which has been mathematically demonstrated to lead to polarization between two parties that are mostly indistinguishable outside of the core polar issues.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#528
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race relations between Oakland's black residents and Oakland police have been fraught for decades (probably at least since the founding of the Black Panther Party in Oakland in the 60s). But that doesn't justify the violent actions you've described. Unfortunately, some senior "dog whistle" politicians have labeled protesters "thugs" and "looters" and have called for "shooting" and "no quarter." These loose words are…

"have labeled protesters "thugs" and "looters" " Referring to looters as 'looters' is not problematic. Calling for shootings, using code-words like 'thugs' and referring to peaceful protesters as 'looters' is a problem - but let's not lose context here: there are riots and rioters are bad news. I think in these ugly times it's even more important to be cool and clear about things.

In any given group, you can’t know with certainty whether past or future looters are present; looting is an action and not a quality. It is subjective.

Is removing anti-riot barricades ‘looting’ if protesters remove them from the street and out of the control of authorities in order to exercise their right to protest?

Branding someone a rioter empowers the utterer and subjugates the one deemed rioting in your framing. You seem to think it is justified to use violence against someone because of how you perceive their actions, even if they don’t hurt people, only property. There is a subtle but distinct difference. Using force to defend yourself and others has a long precedent and is largely uncontroversial in a public context such as this. However, a citizen in public generally can’t engage someone who is running away from them as they are not in imminent danger. Unless you think they are immediately returning with a weapon, you have to let them go once they get away or chase them and perform a citizen’s arrest. Shooting a fleeing person is frowned upon by the courts. Only police have that authority.

Why then are citizens taking it upon themselves to prevent looting and rioting? Defending businesses and private property from the inside and the entryway is one thing. Chasing fleeing ‘looters’ is a situation for disaster. Besides mistaken identity, which is already causing defenders and protesters who fought looters to be detained by police while actual looters escape, there are problems with armed individuals running into crowds of undifferentiable groups of protesters, looters, and rioters. How will the defenders know when to stop beating people up? How will they know if the protester defending the person next to them from collateral damage isn’t another looter? They will see what they want to see in the situation, on both sides.

Violence is not the way. I just don’t see how property damage is a mortal harm that justifies what I’m seeing. It may not be justified to damage the property, but as an individual or small group of defenders, there is no proportionality of response that makes sense against a large group of people. To start the fight is to lose on all sides. The protest will end when it ends. Lives shouldn’t end through protest, or through its consequences. One was enough to start this one. There’s a reason people do it, even if it may have knock-on effects. That’s the point. To shutdown protest because of its intended and unintended consequences is to make a means test for our constitutional rights. It’s not tolerated well in the streets or in the courtroom.

The defenders are unknowingly or knowingly participating in a counter-protest movement against the current legitimate George Floyd protests. It is being promoted through dog whistles by the right wing. It’s actually really obvious that authoritarians aren’t wasting this crisis. They start as many fires as they put out. I’m including rioters in that last part.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#529
post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen dozens or hundreds of videos of civilians acting inappropriately? If a “woman of color” was seen starting a fire, would you be comfortable saying things like “black women start fires”? I sure hope not. Even if you had dozens of examples, it would still be wrong to make such a statement.

>Have you seen dozens or hundreds of videos of civilians acting inappropriately? Yes. I have also seen countless videos in which civilians were reprimanded by other citizens for acting inappropriately. They are trying to police themselves. Why can't the police police themselves? >If a “woman of color” was seen starting a fire, would you be comfortable saying things like “black women start fires”? I sure hope not. Eve…

I was not making any blanket statements about anyone beyond the general group of "police".

Yes, that was the point. Blanket statements don’t work in either case.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police seem to clearly be allowing looting on purpose. SoHo was looted two days in a row . Where were the NYPD? There are 10's of thousands of uniformed officers Maybe you can say the first day they somehow missed it, but two days in a row? Come on. I refuse to believe that they didn't see this coming - they brag about how they're "gathering intel" on terrorist groups, but they couldn't check twitter to see #soho…

What would you have preferred? If the police shows up and the looting does not stop, they can either use force (aka violence) to make it stop, or they can go home, essentially giving up the rule of law in the area. Not showing up can be a tactical decision: you don't have to generate more bad press and more cries about police brutality and you also don't need to quasi-officially hand over the area to the looters. The…

The state's power is not just fear alone, it's legitimacy. What stops people from looting under normal circumstances is the belief that looting is wrong and will be punished, and people will agree punishment was justified.

Failing to respond to looting damages the state's legitimacy. Responding to looting and failing to stop it damages the state's legitimacy. Even responding to looting and successfully stopping it damages the state's legitimacy, because mass looting signals that looting has become more acceptable.

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