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Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

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Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#411

Post by caycep »

ravenstine wrote: post #151
jascii wrote: post #133

Disclaimer: I am a bleeding heart liberal and this may filter my observations. I have been to a few rallies/vigils/marches lately and all incidences of violence that I have witnessed either in person or through media has been instigated by the police. As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the…

To me, it was pretty clear that the police in Santa Monica and Long Beach allowed the looting to occur while treating the protesters like criminals from the outset. This isn't to say that other local precincts weren't significantly better in their treatment of protesters, but there's clear evidence that many police departments are either corrupt or completely inept in addressing violent crime. This has been a long ti…

and I thought these Raymond Chandler novels describing the cops of "Bay City" were fiction...

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#412

Post by jascii »

Kiro wrote: post #370
jascii wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any concrete examples where the protesters instigated the violence? I have not been able to find any.

I don't understand how you can think that all violence everywhere was started by the police. Yes, the police has probably been guilty of that, but do you really think all protestors are unanimously and inherently peaceful in every single place? Even in Sweden most protests are filled with bad actors and professional rioters who just want to cause a stir.

I never made any such statement, let alone "keep pushing". I simply asked for counterexamples to some of the examples shown in the media.

Do you have any concrete examples in your situation in Sweden?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#413

Post by lawnchair_larry »

untog wrote: post #305
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In any case, it’s all the same: in a country that parades its freedom, people of color can’t protest without the president calling for them to be roughed up, and without the police willingly complying. That’s a load of bullshit and you know it. This isn’t the situation.

In all seriousness, what is incorrect about that statement? Take a look at all the video taken since Saturday, then compare it to, say, the protests against lockdowns just a few weeks ago. Surely you see the very notable difference?

If you don’t see how inaccurate several parts of that statement are, I am afraid that it would likely not be a productive discussion for either of us.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#414

Post by lostmsu »

xedeon wrote: post #208
lostmsu wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first one is concerning, but the incident appears to be resolved now (?). The second one does not seem like a major problem to me, as the police might not know a random filming guy showing some piece of paper to be an actual reporter, rather than just a friend of the rioters filming their action for YouTube. It seems it also was resolved. Unless there's an easy way for police to make a credible determination if t…

Even after identifying themselves with their press credentials? Come on.

The comment you are replying to addresses this:

> Unless there's an easy way for police to make a credible determination if the media badge is valid, I would count it as an honest mistake with no major consequences.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#415

Post by 99_00 »

aoeusnth1 wrote: post #392
99_00 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to your experience, but I've been in multiple riots, and you are right, teargas make some peaceful protestors violent and angry. From what I've seen, teargas and mace are used after a small minority of protesters become violent and the crowd is lawfully ordered to disperse. I can't say if these are the right tactics, but I have not seen police use these things for no obvious reason. The one situation wh…

Police do use teargas and mace for no reason. There are dozens (hundreds?) of videos of exactly that from the last week, including an aerial shot of Seattle PD instigating with mace at point blank range on protesters who were behind a barricade.

Were they lawfully ordered to clear the area before using force?

If the lawful order was give, was it because criminals were using the peaceful protest as cover?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#417

Post by slg »

rumanator wrote: post #312
monoideism wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That looks very suspicious, but if this were really a widespread technique by the police, I'm assuming there would be more than a single video taken. I mean, we know the black bloc and similar groups engages in these tactics, they've been doing it since Seattle WTO 1999. I've seen it in person to protests I've been to (as a protester). It's very hard for me to believe that all of a sudden those people are no longer a…

> That looks very suspicious, but if this were really a widespread technique by the police Giving your comment the benefit of the doubt, that does not address the fact that a while platoon of police officers witnessed a fellow police officer vandalize public property without any reason or justification, and they didn't even flinched or complained or even frowned upon that brand of unprovoked abuse. That's pretty much…

> they didn't even flinched or complained or even frowned upon that brand of unprovoked abuse

I have seen dozens if not over a hundred videos of the police acting inappropriately over the last few days. I have only seen a single video in which any of them were stopped or reprimanded by another cop and that one "good cop" was a woman of color. If this inappropriate behavior is done by such a small percentage of the police force and is frowned on by all the other good cops, why is there so little evidence of police policing themselves?

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#418

Post by lawnchair_larry »

rumanator wrote: post #312
monoideism wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That looks very suspicious, but if this were really a widespread technique by the police, I'm assuming there would be more than a single video taken. I mean, we know the black bloc and similar groups engages in these tactics, they've been doing it since Seattle WTO 1999. I've seen it in person to protests I've been to (as a protester). It's very hard for me to believe that all of a sudden those people are no longer a…

> That looks very suspicious, but if this were really a widespread technique by the police Giving your comment the benefit of the doubt, that does not address the fact that a while platoon of police officers witnessed a fellow police officer vandalize public property without any reason or justification, and they didn't even flinched or complained or even frowned upon that brand of unprovoked abuse. That's pretty much…

If it were me, and I had a first hand account of what he did and whether he had a justifiable reason, I would have it documented and escalated after returning to the office, hopefully anonymously, or at least confidentially.

I would also keep an eye on that officer to see if there were more violations.

I would not break formation and try to handcuff another officer in the moment, because it would be strategically unwise.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#419

Post by lawnchair_larry »

jascii wrote: post #386
monoideism wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That looks very suspicious, but if this were really a widespread technique by the police, I'm assuming there would be more than a single video taken. I mean, we know the black bloc and similar groups engages in these tactics, they've been doing it since Seattle WTO 1999. I've seen it in person to protests I've been to (as a protester). It's very hard for me to believe that all of a sudden those people are no longer a…

"Agent Provocateurs" are an old and well documented technique with examples varying from history through the civil rights era to the current day protests.

That is not what they do though. On the other hand, it is what black bloc rioters do.

Re: Police attacks against journalists across the U.S. since May 28

#420

Post by tonystubblebine »

jascii wrote: post #133

Disclaimer: I am a bleeding heart liberal and this may filter my observations. I have been to a few rallies/vigils/marches lately and all incidences of violence that I have witnessed either in person or through media has been instigated by the police. As far as I know,every documented case where a formerly peaceful crowd turns into chaos has been started with police shooting pepperspray, teargas, or whatever into the…

I think at some level, police are rioting to keep their jobs.

I came around to prison abolition once I realized it was a goal that was meant to be achieved piece by piece.

Cash bail. That's one piece. None of those people need to be in jail. They haven't been convicted of a crime and they overwhelmingly show up for their court date if released. The only thing they can't afford is their bail and that is used to get them to plead to crimes without the police having to prove anything. That's 470k people on any given night. *

Drug possession. Like to smoke weed? Well, that's your choice and no need to throw you in jail over it like 1.4 million people each year.

The other pieces are more radical or require replacement programs or just don't even have proposed solutions. But just above are two pieces of the incarceration system that the many people will agree could just be turned off.

So, if you turn those off, what's the staffing change in police departments and correctional facilities? We're not talking about firing for performance (yet), this is just run of the mill right sizing. Gotta be efficient--can't give people jobs as a handout.

What if you kept going down this line of reasoning. What if you ended racial profiling? Across the country black motorists are 20% more likely to be pulled over. Either black people are being targeted (the consensus) or white people are being given a free pass (my personal experience is that this is also happening). So either hire more police to pull over white people more often. We are doing hella drugs, driving drunk all the time, texting while driving, etc. Or, more along the lines of what everyone wants, there could be a 20% reduction in the staffing of highway patrol.

I think if the will of the people was respected, police departments would probably be reduced by 25% across the country. Certainly in NYC, which has one of the highest cops per capita in the world even though we have the highest density and cops shouldn't have to walk far to do their jobs.

If it were my policy though, probably 50% of police could be eliminated.

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

https://www.drugpolicy.org/issues/drug-war-statistics

* https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford...

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