De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#741

Post by yters » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

ikeyany wrote: post #734

yters wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

perhaps if i saw protesters actively stopping violence and looting instead of just spectating and filming and cheering, as well as comments supporting violence getting flagged on hn otherwise, plenty of people may not be personally willing to risk themselves by being violent, but are happy to stand by as others are violent anyways, i hope the protesters look forward to trump 2020, because that is the current trajecto…

Protestors actively stopping violence and looting: https://facebook.com/fox11la/videos/2620823021579078/ https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Al_OCpYFk Consider why you are so unwilling to admit that bad cops who murder innocents are also the problem.

consider why you are making assumptions about what I believe?

even if, for sake of argument, bad cops are instigating all the riots and looting, the media optics will make this a slam dunk for trump 2020 and more militarized police

exactly contrary to what we really want

consider this

where do all the people live who are most likely to vote against trump?

the big cities

where are all the riots taking place?

the big cities

if trump stops the riots and saves their livelihood, will this make them more likely or less likely to vote against trump? what do you think?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#742

Post by bjourne » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

RhysU wrote: post #558

bjourne wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. Can you spot the difference between an African and European swallow? I bet you can't. But a professional bird watcher could tell them apart in a second. Same thing with protestors. When I was active I could easily tell the difference between someone potentially violent and someone peaceful.…

> When I was active I could easily tell the difference between someone potentially violent and someone peaceful. Woman with a stroller - probably peaceful. Person in all black with a large backpack - potentially violent. Wait for it... > The simple solution to this problem is for the police to target the troublemakers and to let the peaceful protestors be. You are suggesting that the police should profile individuals…

That's a "gotcha" question and it tells me that you are not interested in the subject - only in trying to expose me as a hypocrite. But I never expressed support for the idea that the police should treat everyone exactly the same at all times.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#743

Post by vertex-four » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

kuzimoto wrote: post #615

vertex-four wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is citizens job to be compliant. It is the government's job to enforce compliance. That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship, not democracy. In a democracy, it's the citizens' job to keep their Government accountable - when the population says that the right to a presumption of innocence is paramount, they create a Government to ensure that right. What you are suggesting is that the population does not believ…

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you wrote "Government says one thing so we're compliant, and then does another when it suits it". I never said people don't have the ability to change how the government enforces compliance, simply that they are the ones who do. Many people have died at the hands of other rioters as a result of the protests. I'm not saying that people needed to loose their eyes, but they were…

Who exactly are these "many people"? I haven't been able to find a source on this. When I checked yesterday, three protesters had been killed by people unrelated to the protest, and two people had been shot by some people driving around in a car (cannot work out how/whether that is related to the riots).

There's a lot of energy being put into making this sound like it's more violent than it is, again, so that you agree with it and stay compliant. When the Government does something violent that goes against the reasons it was created, you should not be compliant. I'd hope that you would agree that the Government cannot unilaterally execute people, and that just sitting there while it does so is... completely immoral.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#744

Post by ikeyany » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 6:36 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #741

ikeyany wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protestors actively stopping violence and looting: https://facebook.com/fox11la/videos/2620823021579078/ https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Al_OCpYFk Consider why you are so unwilling to admit that bad cops who murder innocents are also the problem.

consider why you are making assumptions about what I believe? even if, for sake of argument, bad cops are instigating all the riots and looting, the media optics will make this a slam dunk for trump 2020 and more militarized police exactly contrary to what we really want consider this where do all the people live who are most likely to vote against trump? the big cities where are all the riots taking place? the big c…

Why do you keep bringing up Trump? Ignore the election for a second.

I'm pointing out two issues: rioting, and the police brutality leading to the rioting are both societal problems. We saw this exact scenario after the Freddie Gray murder. I'm also trying to find out why you're avoiding admitting that both rioting and police brutality are problems.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#745

Post by throwawaygh » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

bobmaxup wrote: post #438

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #19

Imagine being a cop and having to deal with stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k4L97igDjY They literally save this man's life and he kills the guy who saved his life. Cops don't work in a safe space. Years of working in a violent and hateful environment must take a serious toll on them.

I assume from the shooter's perspective the cop wants to search a him, and he knows he has an illegal firearm on him. Depending on the state and his status as a repeat offender, he could be facing life in prison for that. So, suddenly murdering the person who is going to put you in jail for the rest of your life seems like a zero sum game to a sociopath.

> So, suddenly murdering the person who is going to put you in jail for the rest of your life seems like a zero sum game to a sociopath.

"you win and I go to jail forever / I win and you die" actually literally is a zero-sum a game. People fight/support wars over even completely unrealistic fears that they might one day lose even a bit of their freedom.

Maybe you mean that deciding not to voluntarily lose that zero-sum game makes someone a sociopath. And, tbh, in that situation, I would rather surrender than kill (for a lot of reasons, both moral and practical). However, I also wouldn't call someone a sociopath for deciding to kill in order to avoid a life sentence. "Live Free or Die" is literally the motto of the state of New Hampshire.

If I were about to arrest someone who knew they were going to jail for life, I would go into that situation expecting a life-and-death struggle. Even if that person were a completely balanced and mentally healthy person. Anything less seems a bit naive.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#746

Post by m0zg » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #731

m0zg wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were you actually there and see it in person, though, or did you hear it from someone else? Because if it's the latter, it smells like horseshit from a mile away. That's why in a conflict you need to hear _both_ versions of what actually happened and try to be impartial.

1. If I was there, on the front line, you'd just dismiss me as either biased, or unable to see what was going on in other parts of the line. This video has the widest field of view of anyone present. 2. Which particular part of this smells like horseshit to you? The news cutting the clip before airing it? The SPD twitter claiming that the police retaliated to an attack by rocks and bottles? Do you see any rocks or bo…

> Which particular part of this smells like horseshit to you?

That the police would tear gas people unprovoked. That just doesn't happen in the United States in my experience, although if provoked, they do not hesitate.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#747

Post by yters » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:22 PM UTC

ikeyany wrote: post #744

yters wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

consider why you are making assumptions about what I believe? even if, for sake of argument, bad cops are instigating all the riots and looting, the media optics will make this a slam dunk for trump 2020 and more militarized police exactly contrary to what we really want consider this where do all the people live who are most likely to vote against trump? the big cities where are all the riots taking place? the big c…

Why do you keep bringing up Trump? Ignore the election for a second. I'm pointing out two issues: rioting, and the police brutality leading to the rioting are both societal problems. We saw this exact scenario after the Freddie Gray murder. I'm also trying to find out why you're avoiding admitting that both rioting and police brutality are problems.

why are you asking loaded questions? it is almost as if you are not interested in having a discussion, but would rather post talking points that i already agree with

hard to understand the point of what you are doing

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#748

Post by snovv_crash » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

welterde wrote: post #573

snovv_crash wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is mandatory military service for males, so you actually see a lot of guns being open-carried by people heading home for the weekend on public transport etc.

They are not allowed to be loaded however if I am not misinformed.

Can you tell if there's a round in the chamber from the outside?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#749

Post by mensetmanusman » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #634

mensetmanusman wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

??? The number includes everyone who has tested positive, what do you mean by ‘applying it across the whole population’ ?

You sort of address it here: > An extra person will die this year (beyond the usual 3 who die every year). It could be anyone, but you're told its most likely to be somebody who would die in the next 5 years. The death rate is not an equally weighted distribution over the whole population. In fact, it's very weighted towards middle age and up, with younger people dragging it down. So in your example it's likely to be…

I see, applying it across the population age distribution, yes.

This virus is dangerous to the elderly, but not nearly as relatively dangerous as the flu is to the young:

https://freopp.org/estimating-the-risk-of-death-from-covid-1...

If the young had political power, the response would be a lot different, but because the wealth/power lie with the elderly, the current response is predictable. Fascinating times

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#750

Post by craftinator » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #717

0xBA5ED wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do you believe it would be totally clear that you should be convicted of a crime for failing to stop your commanding officer from committing a crime?

The question isn’t whether failing to stop a crime makes you an accessory, it’s a question of whether or not performing perimeter security for a crime makes you an accessory.

Because the parent poster's comment is dead, I'm responding to yours. Yes, obeying unlawful orders from your commanding officer is a violation of the UCMJ, and you will be criminally charged for doing so unless it can be demonstrated through strong evidence that you could not have known the order was unlawful. You are simply responsible for your own actions, as is everyone else (including the police).