Dust in the Light • Hacker News Board

Re: Dust in the Light

#41

Post by kennxfl » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 6:57 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #29

I love Ben Thompson's writing and I like how he accurately connects the history of institutional racism to the events of today. I have seen a few articles of this kind, and it seems like in today's America vast majority of people (except a few Trump holdouts) have acknowledged that the historical arc of slavery to segregation to white flight to real estate discrimination has led to where we are. However, what I don't…

Covid had definitely exposed flaws in pure free market capitalism. We are modern human beings who can control Darwinism for the sake of greater good if need be.

Re: Dust in the Light

#42

Post by clairity » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

frakkingcylons wrote: post #32

clairity wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, i've read a few of these analyses, and while they're mildly interesting, they're not nearly as earth-shatteringly insightful and counter-intuitive as many seem to think they are. it's mostly bog-standard strategic analysis you learn during MBA school, but to ben's credit, well laid out, organized, and appropriately cited. this particular post seems to marvel at how big tech provides otherwise-sheltered people a…

> it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets Sure, seeing large marches are great at grabbing attention, but seeing actual video evidence of police brutality is _much_ more persuasive. Now almost everyone has high-def cameras, and the ability to stream live to everyone (so people will see it even if the police take/destroy your phone). I think that makes a…

> "Sure, seeing large marches are great at grabbing attention, but seeing actual video evidence of police brutality is _much_ more persuasive."

again, for you. the people marching didn't need to see the video to be angry and mobilize for change. they were already angry, a long-simmering anger of an even longer and more widely tolerated injustice and oppression. when people protest, we should listen to them, believe them, because protesting is not without its risks and costs. that the video matters so much to you relative to the protesters is exactly the criticsm of perspective leveled here.

Re: Dust in the Light

#43

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #36

scarface74 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and HN users are the first to want more government regulation over tech. The current administration is already trying to “shut down Twitter”. Edit Citation: https://www.newsday.com/long-island/politics/trump-twitter-f...

Government regulation in terms of how they selectively police their platforms, not in the sense of "don't disparage the government".

So let’s say a platform censored “Focus on the Family” and “Black Lives Matter”, which one do you think the current government would fight for?

But the current administration claimed the reason to get rid of Network Neutrality was to “reduce regulation”. If they don’t like the current platforms they should create their own. Isn’t that the entire mantra of conservatives to let the free market address such problems?

Re: Dust in the Light

#44

Post by KerrickStaley » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

Zooming in on the commentary on Facebook/Twitter's approaches to Trump's post, I just want to say that in my opinion, Twitter did the right thing in this case and also in the previous case of misinformation about mail-in voting.

We need to innovate in terms of how we keep democracies healthy, given the dramatic change to the flow of information caused by social media and the internet.

Adding a "get the truth" notice to posts that contain misinformation is a great way to strike a balance between censoring misinformation and letting it spread unchecked, and this approach is an interesting new tool in the toolkit we have for keeping conversations healthy on the internet. I applaud Twitter for their work in developing and experimenting with this tool.

Likewise, limiting the viral spread of posts that threaten violence (by preventing likes and retweets) is also a useful tool. It's interesting to note that the reason this post wasn't removed entirely is because public figures like Trump get a "newsworthiness" exception in Twitter's Code of Conduct that allows them to essentially say whatever they want, even if it violates the CoC.

Re: Dust in the Light

#45

Post by nogenerix » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:10 PM UTC

Is it possible with the negative outcomes in the black communities, that maybe the preemptive real estate segregation was a logical action?

Re: Dust in the Light

#46

Post by in_cahoots » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:13 PM UTC

nogenerix wrote: post #30

When someone presents all these negative outcomes for minority groups (education, poverty, incarceration, etc.) it's difficult to not see that in a racial light. "Madison is one of the greatest places to live, just stay out of the black neighborhoods." - how are the people living in the white neighborhoods to be blamed for that?

The lenders for white neighborhoods formed explicit covenants to keep blacks out. White people chose to live in those neighborhoods and voted for lawmakers who supported redlining and other segregationist measures. They didn’t speak up for their black neighbors with less opportunity. For decades they have been silent and complicit as they live in their white neighborhoods and build generational wealth that has been denied to blacks. They may not have explicitly shunned blacks from their neighborhoods, but they certainly turned a blind eye.

Re: Dust in the Light

#47

Post by rkagerer » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:17 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #3

> And no matter what upheaval lies ahead, I am certain that the light that illuminates that dust so brightly can never be put away. There are no more gatekeepers, oftentimes for worse, but also for better. I am not so sanguine. People in power all over the world are seeing the threat to their power from the Internet and working to curtail it. China is probably the most ahead, but I am sure everyone else is hard at wo…

I think ordinary people will eventually realize that once you stop giving so much of your attention to Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. there's a whole internet out there for you to discover.

Re: Dust in the Light

#48

Post by zamfi » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:23 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #18

zamfi wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it claims more significance for this mechanism than, you know, masses of people marching on the streets, because that's the vantage point of the author and it's relative importance to him I mean, the masses of people marching on the streets would very likely not be there but for the widespread sharing of the video.

no, see that's exactly the misestimation afforded by insulation. we've had protests and rebellions recently and for millenia without social media influence. it's just not a required feature of masses of people being angry at injustice.

Sure, and we’ve had race riots in the past too.

But when was the last time we had this level of protest in support of a minority group? The million man march? And that required how much organization in comparison?

No one is arguing that it’s a required feature for masses of people being angry at injustice.

What they’re arguing is that it changes which injustices are visible.

Re: Dust in the Light

#49

Post by disease » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

nogenerix wrote: post #30

When someone presents all these negative outcomes for minority groups (education, poverty, incarceration, etc.) it's difficult to not see that in a racial light. "Madison is one of the greatest places to live, just stay out of the black neighborhoods." - how are the people living in the white neighborhoods to be blamed for that?

I just heard Tim Wise make an interesting argument that one of the perpetuating factors in systemic white supremacy is that there is an aspect of its culture that blinds its adherents to the truth. In his argument, the blinder was the idea of American Meritocracy, where one's lot in life is decided by how hard one is willing to work.

Just based on the evidence we have, this is plainly not the case. Last I read, the biggest factor in determining your level of wealth is how wealthy your parents were a few years before you were born. But from an institutional perspective, this belief makes it easy to point to black people and say 'they are poor because they are lazy and we have some degree of wealth because we worked so hard'.

Re: Dust in the Light

#50

Post by nogenerix » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

in_cahoots wrote: post #46

nogenerix wrote: post #30

When someone presents all these negative outcomes for minority groups (education, poverty, incarceration, etc.) it's difficult to not see that in a racial light. "Madison is one of the greatest places to live, just stay out of the black neighborhoods." - how are the people living in the white neighborhoods to be blamed for that?

The lenders for white neighborhoods formed explicit covenants to keep blacks out. White people chose to live in those neighborhoods and voted for lawmakers who supported redlining and other segregationist measures. They didn’t speak up for their black neighbors with less opportunity. For decades they have been silent and complicit as they live in their white neighborhoods and build generational wealth that has been d…

Sounds racist to say that black communities need access to white communities in order to create positive outcomes. Why can't the black communities stand on their own?