Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear • Hacker News Board

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#51

Post by in_cahoots » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

AWildC182 wrote: post #43

RangerScience wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Changing the police narrative to one of serving, regardless of adversity (see doctors and USPS) from one of "getting to play with violent toys"...

It's interesting trolling that side of the youtube algorithm. It's abundantly clear that we've shifted from cops just being a mix of individuals who want to help and a substantial number of not-so-ex-high-school-bullies to full on military LARPers. The DHS funding being pumped into the forces have resulted in police being better battle-equipped than the average country's military and this has become a recruiting tool…

Is there any evidence this is true? The vast majority of cops will never aim their weapons at another person or use military gear beyond training. Is the slim chance of getting to use a humvee once in your career really compelling?

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#52

Post by meowsnow » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

pmorici wrote: post #18

rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

The San Jose cop that caught controversy was found by public records to be getting paid over 200k a year: "According to Transparent California, a salary database of public employees, Yuen has worked for SJPD since at least 2014 and made about $153,000 in regular pay and overtime in 2019 as part of a total $226,000 compensation package." You can also look at Seattle police salaries (https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/databases/article2586102... it is normal for police to be getting paid 150k+.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#53

Post by ksdale » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

in_cahoots wrote: post #51

AWildC182 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting trolling that side of the youtube algorithm. It's abundantly clear that we've shifted from cops just being a mix of individuals who want to help and a substantial number of not-so-ex-high-school-bullies to full on military LARPers. The DHS funding being pumped into the forces have resulted in police being better battle-equipped than the average country's military and this has become a recruiting tool…

Is there any evidence this is true? The vast majority of cops will never aim their weapons at another person or use military gear beyond training. Is the slim chance of getting to use a humvee once in your career really compelling?

A lot of people end up in law school because of courtroom dramas, even though the vast majority of attorneys don't spend much time at all in a courtroom...

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#54

Post by tehwebguy » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

Taking away their toys would have a massive impact, don't concern troll that vital point away.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#55

Post by nappy-doo » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

meowsnow wrote: post #52

pmorici wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that both professions have the same sort of "service in a time of crisis" mythology surrounding them but how does the fact that the norm for the medical profession is high pay where as the norm for police is slightly above minimum wage starting out with a shot as average pay after several years of service affect those myths?

The San Jose cop that caught controversy was found by public records to be getting paid over 200k a year: "According to Transparent California, a salary database of public employees, Yuen has worked for SJPD since at least 2014 and made about $153,000 in regular pay and overtime in 2019 as part of a total $226,000 compensation package." You can also look at Seattle police salaries ( https://www.thenewstribune.com/new…

I was between jobs this time last year, and started rooting around in my local town's salary publications. In the top 50 salaries for my mid-size MA town, about 50% were police (starting at places 2, 3, 4 and then like 8?), with the average salary (including overtime) at about 175k$.

There are also 54 people listed as working as "[XXX] police [XXX]", in a town of 41k.

For the record, there is an average of one violent crime a day in my town, and stats like 7 projected rapes in 2020 (0 murders).

Whether or not that's all justified, I leave as an exercise to the reader.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#56

Post by klmadfejno » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #19

catalogia wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should also make it legal for police departments to discriminate against combat veterans when hiring, and encourage them to do so. Perhaps as a token of fairness, this could be paired with a separate initiative to provide other sort of jobs to combat veterans. People trained by the military to police occupied communities should not be allowed to act as civilian police in peacetime conditions.

This is completely backwards. If anything the veterans are the one not shooting first and asking questions later because that kind of conduct is/was not allowed overseas. They also tend to have a little more perspective as to what does and doesn't constitute a threat.

I thought this was an interesting perspective. I found only a single study into this issue in the journal of public health. They found the opposite.

Ex-military cops were almost 3x more likely to be involved in a shooting.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30281075/

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#57

Post by OminousWeapons » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

This is going after symptoms rather than going after problems. The primary problem is there are a subset of police that are bad actors, there is a thin blue line culture, and there is an unwillingness on the part of jurors, prosecutors, and politicians to hold police accountable. This legislative action does nothing to address that. A second problem is that police seem to be viewing their job as one of pacification as opposed to community based policing. This legislative action solves a symptom of that but doesn't go after the root cause which is again cultural.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#58

Post by sorokod » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:53 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

Getting rid of people with infantile obsession in everything "tactical" ( Google for 'tactical underware') is a step in the right direction.

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#59

Post by thewebcount » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:54 PM UTC

jmastrangelo wrote: post #5

Focusing on the gear seems like a cheap and easy solution compared to fixing training and accountability, the actual root of the issue.

There is evidence that demilitarizing the police works (along with other things) and that some training doesn't.[0] I'm all for accountability, which the link also says helps.

[0]https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1180655701271732224.html

Re: Lawmakers begin bipartisan push to cut off police access to military-style gear

#60

Post by jariel » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

tehwebguy wrote: post #54

rconti wrote: post #14

A common response to the idea of "police reform" is that it will make it harder/more expensive/etc to hire police, which we all agree we need. As an armchair economist who believes that everything DOES happen at the margins, we can't completely ignore this, so I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the argument. But what really kills the argument is looking at how our medical professionals have stepped up and responded…

Taking away their toys would have a massive impact, don't concern troll that vital point away.

For once I am not nearly as cynical and I believe that far from 'massive impact' - it will be negligible. It's only been a decade or so since a lot of this surplus has come in, moreover, I really don't believe most cops want this, or are naive enough to believe it will be a material part of their jobs.

I'm surprised to even see the argument offered, I'm very interested in hearing from someone with inside experience on this enlighten us as to how much these kinds of 'opportunities' actually affect morale.