De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer • Hacker News Board

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#731

Post by vkou » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:52 PM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #538

vkou wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had a peaceful protest in Cap Hill in Seattle, where the police knelt in solidarity earlier today. There was no violence, no looting, no broken glass, and everyone was being peaceful. After the photo op was done, the police started macing and tear-gassing the crowd. The news then ran this video [1], but with the first 20 seconds cut out, and blamed the protesters on initiating violence. [1] https://www.reddit.com/…

Were you actually there and see it in person, though, or did you hear it from someone else? Because if it's the latter, it smells like horseshit from a mile away. That's why in a conflict you need to hear _both_ versions of what actually happened and try to be impartial.

1. If I was there, on the front line, you'd just dismiss me as either biased, or unable to see what was going on in other parts of the line. This video has the widest field of view of anyone present.

2. Which particular part of this smells like horseshit to you? The news cutting the clip before airing it? The SPD twitter claiming that the police retaliated to an attack by rocks and bottles? Do you see any rocks or bottles thrown in the first 20 seconds of this video? Who are you going to believe - a cop trying to defend his violent outburst, or your own two eyes? In what universe is what you are observing a defense to an attack? Did you even look at the video?

3. Do you deny the neighbourhood being in good shape prior to this? I can confirm this one in person, by the way. Nothing was looted, windows weren't broken, no cars were burning.

4. Here's a first person video account of that, too. https://twitter.com/izaacmellow/status/1267679820600668161?s...

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#732

Post by carb » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #626

meerita wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buy, wait, the guilty cop is free? no charges?

Yes, three of the four guilty cops are free with no charges, and the fourth is only being charged due to the protests and would not have been otherwise.

I don't know why this was downvoted, it is an entirely true statement.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#733

Post by wetmore » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #440

stcredzero wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. The state should have the monopoly on violence. Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored. This is part and parcel of the Rule of Law. Certainly, this system isn't perfect. B…

This is the consequence of corruption, loss of trust and loss of civil society. And I see no ethical or moral incentive for the second class to participate, because it's a lie that the rule of law applies equally. It's a farce. Just admit what it really is, rather than keep lying about it. The notion that peaceful protest will be respected? The president and vice president have asserted it. Yet both of them castigate…

Thank you for breaking it down so well.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#734

Post by ikeyany » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #718

ikeyany wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If rioters are aligned with protestors in your mind, then aren't cops who murder innocents also aligned with good cops?

perhaps if i saw protesters actively stopping violence and looting instead of just spectating and filming and cheering, as well as comments supporting violence getting flagged on hn otherwise, plenty of people may not be personally willing to risk themselves by being violent, but are happy to stand by as others are violent anyways, i hope the protesters look forward to trump 2020, because that is the current trajecto…

Protestors actively stopping violence and looting:

https://facebook.com/fox11la/videos/2620823021579078/

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Al_OCpYFk

Consider why you are so unwilling to admit that bad cops who murder innocents are also the problem.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#735

Post by meragrin_ » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #138

beloch wrote: post #78

We should expect police to us less use violence and improve their crowd management and deescalation skills. The increasing militarization of police is a trend that must be reversed. However, we should not neglect the other side of the equation either. This article is, in large part, about just that. The article points out that many protests in the U.S. went smoothly through the practice of police and protest organize…

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

> In all cases, the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them.

How many organizers are there compared to participants? How are the participants supposed to know the police intrusion has been agreed to? How do you know there aren't participants who would choose to align themselves with the "autonomous bloc" over the police? Assuming all "good"(work with organizers) demonstrators work together, how would you give notice without giving the "autonomous bloc" ample time to disappear into the crowd? It isn't like the demonstrators are surrounding the rioters and/or opening a path for the police.

As for using tech to track rioters, perhaps it is far from good enough in protest situations. I imagine it is hard to get a hold of enough data to train for that situation. Perhaps the police have been prevented from using it. I know Clearview AI tech has already been banned in a number of places.

Did you ever go to the police to find out what you could have done differently to prevent the indiscriminate charge?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#736

Post by david38 » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #547

idealboy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday. We refused to leave and fortunately they left and let us have a peaceful march. There doesn’t seem to be an interest in separating out the extreme minority that protest violently. There had been zero violence or destruction that day. A very well-behaved crowd…

Not insightful at all. > after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. The thing is that they can. That's a very deliberate tactic, down to planting of provocators. If you been watching what's going on around the world, the allegations of that, including provoca…

This is a gross oversimplification. I have family members in law enforcement. In most cases it’s very difficult to tell the people apart. People can barely identify a single thief, unmasked, caught on camera, yet somehow they have these god-like powers to identify troublemakers who weave through the crowd of protesters, all masked?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#737

Post by johnsonjo » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

monadic2 wrote: post #537

johnsonjo wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know my brother showed me a very uncivil and awful video of a black man trying to defend his business by telling looters to go away and being beaten and at least knocked unconcious with a pool of blood around his head. There were many other videos I saw where people stood outside their businesses with guns and their businesses didn’t seem to get looted at least. (I know it’s all anecdotal, but at least it say…

Sorry, what’s the connection to replacing police de-escalating with social workers de-escalating? You’ve lost me.

Sorry, I should do a better job at explaining why I said what I said. I'll try to do better at that next time. What I meant to imply is that non-violent forces like the social worker or the man defending his business (using pleading and non-violent force) can very easily be met with violent force. Whereas sometimes even the fear of violence is enough to stop the escalation of force. I honestly don't even know if that black man that defended his business lived. I can agree with you police need to be better at de-escalating they and their departments should be striving for that. Maybe training could help? Also at the same time I feel, and I'm not saying this is something that always happens but it's a thing that always happens under the given circumstances, when something isn't de-escalated without force (such as a failed de-escalation by a social worker or non-violent de-escalation by police) it by nature will escalate, so to prevent loss of life sometimes force can be necessary (such as what the police can do). So, leaving the police completely out of it in the first place could be dangerous to the social worker and other parties involved.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#738

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

sojournerc wrote: post #671

renewiltord wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, hopefully one day I'll find those places, but so far across NC, CO, and CA it's all majority authoritarians wherever I look. It's not that life is hard for me. It's great. It's just that there are lots of authoritarians everywhere and that's harming my worldview. If you don't want to spread it too wide, I'd welcome a tip. renewiltord@protonmail.com If you feel like you'd rather not share, I understand that too.

I don't disagree with there being a majority of meddlesome authoritarians in the US. Largely there's a culture of strict rule-following whether or not there's a good reason for the rule. I live in a little mountain town outside of Boulder, CO. The contrast between the anti-authoritarian libertarians, cowboys and hippies in my small community and the "yuppies" just 15 miles east in Boulder is palpable. Rugged individu…

Very cool, dude. Thanks for the tip. Looks like a lovely town.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#739

Post by vel0city » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

0xBA5ED wrote: post #522

TulliusCicero wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it happened in the first place? That black people are treated worse by police as the norm?

But "the police" didn't kill this specific person. A specific police officer did and he's in jail.

"The police" were on the scene watching a fellow officer murder a man in plain daylight with crowds watching and did nothing.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#740

Post by andreygrehov » Tue, Jun 02, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

celticninja wrote: post #721

andreygrehov wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, because there are at least 5 types of protesters, all with different goals. There is no way to control this salad peacefully. 1. Peaceful protesters against police brutality (including peaceful Black Lives Matter protesters). 2. The radical wing of the Black Lives Matter, who believe that the time of peaceful protests is over and that the only way to change the situation is to use violent methods, especial…

Ok some huge generalisations going on here, people can have many facets to them, so a peaceful protestor might become part of the radical wing after watching their friends get attacked by police when peacefully protesting. When has antifa ever been archistic?. They are anti-facist, they dont want to bring down the state, unless that state is a Fascist one (I know Trump is bad but the USA is not a facist state current…

> a peaceful protestor might become part of the radical wing after watching their friends get attacked by police when peacefully protesting.

The radical wing protesters are all well prepared. There is no way to identify them, they wear bandanas, cover their faces as much as possible. Peaceful protesters are barely covering their faces - basic face-masks to prevent the spread of the virus.

As for the antifa, they are taking the civil rights movement hostage and trying to create chaos on these protests by framing peaceful protesters and peaceful African-American activists.

A lot of violent protests are organized movements. They "advertise" on websites similar to Craigslist and offer $25/h on average. Police is well aware of all of that, which is why they have to act fast. This whole thing is no longer about George Floyd and police. It's much broader. A shit ton of people see this as an opportunity to reach their own goals hiding behind BLM, police lawlessness and so on.

P.S. English is my second language, so when I say control, what I really mean is to make sure peaceful protest stays peaceful. It's needed because not everyone is smart enough to understand that stealing laptops from stores is not normal.