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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#651

Post by boomboomsubban »

kuzimoto wrote: post #206
komali2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you feel that way if they came and burned your house or business down? Yup, and I have the receipts to prove it: my motorcycle was vandalized in Oakland during the protests. A small price to pay for unsung voices being heard. You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them.

> You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. When you commit a crime and violate someone's freemdoms (the primary being right to life, liberty, property), you forfeit your own. When you kill someone and take their life, you steal or destroy property, you are now in debt to society. By living in a society you agre…

>primary being right to life, liberty, property),

How does the "pursuit of happiness" become "property?"

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#652

Post by TuringNYC »

kuzimoto wrote: post #206
komali2 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you feel that way if they came and burned your house or business down? Yup, and I have the receipts to prove it: my motorcycle was vandalized in Oakland during the protests. A small price to pay for unsung voices being heard. You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them.

> You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. When you commit a crime and violate someone's freemdoms (the primary being right to life, liberty, property), you forfeit your own. When you kill someone and take their life, you steal or destroy property, you are now in debt to society. By living in a society you agre…

>> The police officer was in the wrong. He was arrested, and charged. He will pay for what he did.

"He will pay for what he did." You seem to have certain knowledge of the future. Dismissively saying everything will be OK does not actually make it happen.

I'm only going from past experience: If anything is learned from the many times this story has played out in the past, the cops wont wont pay. In fact, until an independent investigation: the cops were well on their way to freedom:

"The criminal complaint said that the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Mr. Floyd, the complaint said, had underlying health conditions, including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease."

https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-autopsy-michael...

These are things people are protesting:

0. That a video has to exist

1. That nationwide protests need to happen before an officer is charged

2. That when it happens, many non-PoC say "oh he probably did something wrong [thus i dont care if the alleged criminal was killed]"

3. That when it happens, non-PoC say "oh it will be OK" knowing full well their own children will never be subject to this type of treatment.

People are not angry about this incident only they are angry about it happening over and over and over w/o any real systemic change.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#653

Post by [deleted] »

kthxbye123 wrote: post #427
Consultant32452 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were reports of planned riots in rural Polk County. Knowing they didn't have the resources to cover wide spread area, the sheriff instructed citizens to shoot anyone who broke into their home. I support this. Telling citizens you can't help them, and they must protect themselves is very different than threatening that the state itself will kill you. https://twitter.com/FOX13News/status/1267539936401592320

Complete nonsense - if you believe for one second that those “reports” were legitimate or that this was a genuine public safety measure you’re an absolute rube and a mark. This was just an elected official pandering to his electoral base of suburban fascists by validating their heroic-murder fantasies.

[deleted]

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#654

Post by pjc50 »

zo1 wrote: post #474
bjourne wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

We're not allowing governments to do the proper, necessary surveillance to control and prevent crimes in general, including ones at demonstrations/protests. Whenever these ideas start popping up, someone always finds some "privacy" concern that spoils a lot of tech-answers to crime and violence, including here on HN. I find it very saddening as the victims of these crimes end up being victims that are ignored by "pri…

The original violent crime - the murder of George Floyd - was filmed in public. That is the kind of violent crime that needs to be controlled to stop the cycle of riots.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#655

Post by kelvin0 »

baybal2 wrote: post #547
idealboy wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday. We refused to leave and fortunately they left and let us have a peaceful march. There doesn’t seem to be an interest in separating out the extreme minority that protest violently. There had been zero violence or destruction that day. A very well-behaved crowd…

Not insightful at all. > after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. The thing is that they can. That's a very deliberate tactic, down to planting of provocators. If you been watching what's going on around the world, the allegations of that, including provoca…

Exactly.

There exists an asymmetry in the dynamics of protesters vs police during a protest. Very simple:

Anyone can be 'planted' in a group of protesters to start stirring up trouble (agent-provocateur). Then the police have 'justification' to use whatever amount of force they think is required.

On the other hand, it's practically impossible for a regular citizen to be embedded into a riot police response unit.

Add to that the police have practically no real oversight and investigate themselves (assuming internal affairs counts as police).

One side can't fail (except morally), while the other side always will end up with the shorter end of the stick.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#656

Post by inerte »

meerita wrote: post #595
KuiN wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment can surely not be in good faith. You cannot seriously be suggesting you believe that protesters went to "destroy evertyhing[sic] in every city"?

I didn't mention protesters, I'm talking about the huge amount of people destroying, looting, beating other people in most cities.

It is not a huge amount, and it is not happening in most cities.

Take a random example here in California, probably 50 people looted Best Buy this weekend? For a city of 70k? Vast minority.

In a country that has 20k cities. There is no way more than 10k cities are experiencing looting.

There is “more than I would actually like”, and there is actual huge/most. It simply isn’t as bad as you make out to be.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#657

Post by cpursley »

jamiewilson wrote: post #380
kortilla wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility. The protests haven’t worked though for the last 20 years or so. IMO it’s more important to vote and promote change than to block traffic. People remember how you made them feel more easily than what you actually said. Preventing them from getting somewhere is a great way to just piss people off.

It’s no wonder that the protests over the last 20 years haven’t worked to garner more support considering that those who do participate are treated with violent retaliation. Maybe if those of us begging to be heard were allowed to speak, and scream and chant, it would inspire more people to unite, organize and vote.

> Maybe if those of us begging to be heard were allowed to speak, and scream and chant, it would inspire more people to unite, organize and vote.

You can. As far as I know, the US is still a democratic country with elections.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#658

Post by xphilter »

RhysU wrote: post #558
bjourne wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. Can you spot the difference between an African and European swallow? I bet you can't. But a professional bird watcher could tell them apart in a second. Same thing with protestors. When I was active I could easily tell the difference between someone potentially violent and someone peaceful.…

> When I was active I could easily tell the difference between someone potentially violent and someone peaceful. Woman with a stroller - probably peaceful. Person in all black with a large backpack - potentially violent. Wait for it... > The simple solution to this problem is for the police to target the troublemakers and to let the peaceful protestors be. You are suggesting that the police should profile individuals…

Absolutely. But part of the problem seems to be that black people all look the same to cops.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#659

Post by [deleted] »

jeffdavis wrote: post #480
pmiller2 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got it backwards. Voting and promoting change is what has not worked. Economic damage is likely to be the only thing that's going to persuade the elites to throw the working class a bone. You're witnessing the anger of the masses in its most pure form here.

Where is the MLK of 2020? I want to see someone who can go beyond their anger and have a plan and lead .

[deleted]

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#660

Post by cpursley »

pmiller2 wrote: post #449
kortilla wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it does not alleviate us of our civic responsibility. The protests haven’t worked though for the last 20 years or so. IMO it’s more important to vote and promote change than to block traffic. People remember how you made them feel more easily than what you actually said. Preventing them from getting somewhere is a great way to just piss people off.

You've got it backwards. Voting and promoting change is what has not worked. Economic damage is likely to be the only thing that's going to persuade the elites to throw the working class a bone. You're witnessing the anger of the masses in its most pure form here.

> Economic damage

Exactly how is destroying low income housing, small businesses (many of them minority owned) and peoples places of employment going to persuade "the elites"?

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