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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

fivethirtyeight.com

541–550 of 799 posts

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got it backwards. Voting and promoting change is what has not worked. Economic damage is likely to be the only thing that's going to persuade the elites to throw the working class a bone. You're witnessing the anger of the masses in its most pure form here.

Where is the MLK of 2020? I want to see someone who can go beyond their anger and have a plan and lead .

You remember a few years back when some athletes took knelt during the national anthem?

And they were told to "shut up and dribble" and the president said they were sons of bitches and should be fired? [1]

There's your peaceful leadership right there.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._national_anthem_protests_...

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#542
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And did those arrest and charges come before or after multiple days of protests? At this point the protests have snowballed into a larger frustration over police conduct (and I'm sure other issues), which only gets reinforced with each instance of force being used on those who are assembled peacefully.

The officers were fired the next day. Chauvin was arrested 3 days later.

The other officers (excluding the one who was standing) involved should also be arrested.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#543
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lockdowns are unnecessary precisely. it's hard to believe this isn't all a false flag.

100k dead

0.026% dead

As per normal, absolute numbers can be misleading to very smart humans when we have trouble intuiting about vast numbers like "100 million". If the goal is to convey scale accurately, its generally recommended to default report population related measures as per capita percentages. That doesn't mean other measures can't be relevant, but the choice really should be very carefully weighed in order to convey accuracy, not to increase shock value.

The fear is that this number (0.026%) will seem too low, which is why we're trying to use numbers like 100,000 in order to convince people to continue acting safely. The real message is: this number is so low BECAUSE we've all been working hard to keep it this low. That's a hard message because its nuanced, but its not misleading. I don't know if its as persuasive, its probably not, but that doesn't make "100,000" not misleading when used for shock.

0.026% is a number that means "most people don't know anyone well who died of covid19", and "many people aren't even directly acquainted with anyone that died of covid19". That's because the social distancing is working.

If it weren't working, based on covid19 survival stats, the human feeling would be "most people are directly acquainted with one or two people that died of covid19". That's a very different feeling. TBH, its still not exactly "black death in the middle ages" type of feeling, but the direct human impact would be MUCH larger.

WITH social distancing, at the present death rate, Covid19 in the US is killing about 1/4 the number of people daily of Cancer+Heart Disease.

WITHOUT social distancing (i.e. run amuk), based on "when hospitals were overwhelmed in some italian cities" survival rate, it looks like it'd be daily killing about 2x Cancer+HeartDiesase.

So social distancing is having big impact, and a really good job everyone, we are gaining a LOT of saved lives for our sacrifices.

All that said, I do wonder if 2x the daily deaths of Cancer+HeartDisease tips into "unthinkable to even openly discuss the tradeoff between quality of life and safety" territory? At what death rate do we consider completely changing the world as we know it? 0.00001%? 0.00001%? 0.001%? 0.01%? 0.1%? 1%?

And at what death rate do we surpress discussion of NOT making the tradeoff as too dangerous (risking thoughtless noncompliance)? 0.001% 0.01%? 0.1%? 1%? 10%?

Lets say you were one of the leaders of a small fishing village without mass media (i.e. without big numbers), and somebody convinced you that you had a choice:

1) Everyone stays in their huts for 6 mos to a year with all the impacts and suffering that entails

OR

2) An extra person will die this year (beyond the usual 3 who die every year). It could be anyone, but you're told its most likely to be somebody who would die in the next 5 years.

Does that seem like a no brainer? It doesn't feel like one to me. That would be a hard decision to me. I think I'd go for sitting in the huts, but if somebody wanted to discuss the decision with me.... I think that would be pretty reasonable. If the whole village wanted to get together and really talk it out and vote rather than just letting the leader(s) make the call, I think that'd make a lot of sense.

Personally? I think I'd vote "everyone stays in their huts" but I would absolutely NOT vote "can't be openly discussed because the discussion is too dangerous".

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#544
post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seeing many videos of police doing things like attacking journalists, beating their own cars so that they can later blame the protestors or videos of police unloading bricks from their pickup. The problem is not de-escalation, is that the police is behaving in a criminal manner.

Do you have the links for the second two (damaging own car, unloading bricks)?

this seems to be a link: https://www.wcvb.com/article/viral-social-media-video-claims...

I am not sure because "this content is not available in your region".

Also this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LTeTUtbKvo

cops unloading bricks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTA0N3kkPaE

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#545
post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police brutality has been problem for past 50 years. Maybe protests could wait for couple of weeks. But your right to protest is more important than my right to life, freedom, going to work or pay rent.

Exactly. As wrong as this incident was, the murderer is already in jail. That may not feel like justice right now, but that's what we do with murderers. Basically, the system worked as it should as long as he receives an appropriate sentence.

A man is murdered on the street by police and basically the system worked as it should. Fuck you.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. As wrong as this incident was, the murderer is already in jail. That may not feel like justice right now, but that's what we do with murderers. Basically, the system worked as it should as long as he receives an appropriate sentence.

A man is murdered on the street by police and basically the system worked as it should. Fuck you.

Police officers are humans, believe it or not. Some of them are bad and that will always be true. Regarding your unnecessary insult at the end: Grow up.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been on a few demos that turned violent. Among them the famous one when George Bush decided to pay a visit. In all cases , the organizers wanted to cooperate with the police. They knew who were in the "autonomous bloc" (troublemakers) and would have gladly helped the police zone in on them. In all cases the police didn't care and charged peaceful and violent demonstrators alike. I find it very odd that the polic…

Insightful reply. I marched yesterday and police fired rubber bullets into a peaceful crowd because we were blocking a non-essential intersection. On a Sunday. We refused to leave and fortunately they left and let us have a peaceful march. There doesn’t seem to be an interest in separating out the extreme minority that protest violently. There had been zero violence or destruction that day. A very well-behaved crowd…

Not insightful at all.

> after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction.

The thing is that they can. That's a very deliberate tactic, down to planting of provocators.

If you been watching what's going on around the world, the allegations of that, including provocator planting, followed pretty much every major demonstration event.

It's naive, if not silly, to use that "hey, he started it first!" argument at the time when the fact of confrontation happening is already obvious.

The talk now should not be who started the violence, but how to end it, a peace treaty to say.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#548
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less spending on police, even less trained officers, great right?

Less officers overall and train the remaining officers better. Besides, given that the police already get so much money and we still have problems, it seems like throwing more money at them isn't the answer.

So you want even longer wait times for an officer to respond to your complaint of a stolen car/bike or other “quality of life” crime?

How are people thinking they will get better police service (or any police service) by reducing police budgets? Most of said budget is spent on pensions anyway from the breakdowns I’ve seen. It’s not like cops are rolling in it. Even if you rake in overtime you still have to work during that time.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#549
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it very odd that the police still cannot after all these years and with all development in surveillance tech distinguish between peaceful demonstrators and rioters. One could almost believe that they have no interest in making that distinction. I have been in the middle of protests when I worked for Reuters and the difference between peaceful and violent is very tiny. I was in the no-man’s land between the K…

> The Tea Party protests were never violent. There's a big difference in protesting because you're being taxed too much (in you opinion) and protesting because people with your same skin colour are being systematically targeted by police and killed for no reason.

The original tea party protest ultimately lead to a war, if memory doesn't fail me.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sense I get of it is that he is making excuses for looting behavior.

if that's the case, then why is that bad and the fact that the most wealthy, corporations, and our politicians get away with their excuses from looting people? their looting is stealing data, not paying their share of taxes, abusing power, etc., and just because they aren't physical acts doesn't excuse them. but it's because they are the status quo, and they define what's looting or not. i'm not in favor of stealing…

One is legal (whether you like it or not) the other is illegal. If you don’t like that, vote to have the law changed. No one gets to be a vigilante/looter without legal/social consequences.
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