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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#301

Post by kuzimoto »

komali2 wrote: post #262
kuzimoto wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> murdering black people with no consequences. Can you elaborate? All four of the police officers were immediately fired. The primary officer that was kneeling on him was charged with murder and manslaughter and will go to prison. Likely charges will be brought on the other three.

Only after a police station was burned down. Lord forbid nobody caught the murder on video. This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard. What would have happened if it was citizens? All four would be in jail immediately , if they even get that far without being shot for "resisting arrest" first. At the very least they'd get a beating some…

> Only after a police station was burned down.

I feel like that's more coincidence than anything

> This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard

I bet there is tons of anecdotal data to support any claim. There needs to be aggregated data that shows it's happening in high enough rates to be a "systemic" issue.

> Would you merely "lose your job" if you watched your buddy murder a guy and stood there throughout the whole thing?

In most countries bystanders are not obligated to assist. So nothing would happen to you?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#302

Post by Izkata »

drusepth wrote: post #165
m0zg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wasn’t organized ahead of time Protests might have been unorganized, but riots most certainly are organized. Torching a police car carries a minimum 5 year sentence. It's not the protesters who are doing that. Moreover, it is still being "organized". Someone keeps dropping off pallets with bricks. There are agitator leaflets all over twitter. People have been recorded on video handing out cash to "protesters" from…

We had a peaceful protest in Kansas City on Friday where some police joined in, listened to protestors, took a knee with the protestors, and the mayor joined the protest as well. It was peaceful and all over the news. The very next day we had several trucks unloading beds of bricks and large rocks throughout the Plaza (where protests were and would be again that night) throughout the day and people were snapping vide…

These brick drops are being noticed all over the country. It's definitely being intentionally escalated by some group.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#303

Post by robotresearcher »

autokad wrote: post #281
komali2 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could we please not waste a second of thought on the relatively minor issue of broken store windows until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people? If you care so much, how about petition your local police force to dump their tear gas at the range and stop firing on peaceful protesters, turning a lot of sitting people into a riot.

> "until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people?" Can we please stop making this just about race and recognize we have a general police brutality issue? You do realize cops kill just as many whites as they do blacks. The same police that killed George Floyd also killed Justine Damond. When you rationalize away the white people who also have been killed, you polarize the issue and give justifi…

> You do realize cops kill just as many whites as they do blacks

Normalized for population, in the US the rate is 3X for black people, and a white person's expectation to be killed by police is less than the average.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shooti...

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#304

Post by scollet »

drusepth wrote: post #111
just_steve_h wrote: post #10

Folks - don't be obtuse. Police commanders know exactly what will happen when they escalate with tear gas and rubber bullets. Pro-police forces WANT mayhem. It makes people watching on TV afraid of the protests, and it changes the subject away from the widespread peaceful opposition to racist police violence.

I am pro-police and I do NOT want mayhem. The ideal protest in my eyes is a peaceful, effective one. One that causes real change -- like increased oversight, accountability, altered training, etc -- in the general police population: one that fixes the very real problems we've seen with police for years and continuously improves law enforcement for years to come. Claiming "pro-police forces WANT mayhem" paints the sit…

This is a very nonsense comment.

What does "pro-police" mean? In this context it means you're pro-murder. In any sane context it means you would like regular law and order. What do you think it means?

Are you kidding me?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#305

Post by komali2 »

kuzimoto wrote: post #271
sagarm wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police brutality is a systemic issue. Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. The Police reaction to these protests clearly shows systemic reform is needed. Peaceful protesters and reporters have been tear gassed, shot, and arrested. They don't deserve to be tret like that just because others decided to vandalize and loot.

> Police brutality is a systemic issue. That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any statistics to show police are by and large using disproportionate force? > Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. There are bad people in society. That doesn't mean the whole system is bad. Of course there is room for improvement, and action should be taken to rem…

> violent rioting

All of the videos from the last few days is still being sorted, but from what I've seen the violence from police against protesters far outstrips that of protesters against random people or cops. I'm in fact only aware of several incidents, and all of which were easily justifiable - a man firing a bow at protesters, an idiot screaming the n-word at protesters, and a man charging at protesters with a sword.

So whenever people say "but riots!" I can't help but question the priorities - can't that wait until after we figure out the police brutality thing? You're only hurting our efforts here, and helping the cops justify the unjustifiable.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#306

Post by thephyber »

ineedasername wrote: post #170
markdown wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ideal protest in my eyes is a peaceful, effective one. This is the US; you only get to pick one of those.

Hardly. The civil rights movement is an excellent example of civil opposition done peacefully and effectively. It helped that there were many strong leaders in that movement across the country. Right now the energy is chaotic and undirected, without a strong voice of leadership to act as both the vanguard of the protests as well as the negotiators of change.

> The civil rights movement is an excellent example of civil opposition done peacefully and effectively

There were 150 riots in the USA between 1965 and 1968, when LBJ was gathering the votes for civil rights.

The Selma march involved police using attack dogs and water cannons are peaceful marchers. It's damned amazing that (perfectly justifiable) violence against police didn't break out. The tools police use now would (and do) make it far more damaging.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#307

Post by autokad »

robotresearcher wrote: post #303
autokad wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "until we sort the issue of cops indiscriminately killing black people?" Can we please stop making this just about race and recognize we have a general police brutality issue? You do realize cops kill just as many whites as they do blacks. The same police that killed George Floyd also killed Justine Damond. When you rationalize away the white people who also have been killed, you polarize the issue and give justifi…

> You do realize cops kill just as many whites as they do blacks Normalized for population, in the US the rate is 3X for black people, and a white person's expectation to be killed by police is less than the average. https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/08/police-officer-shooti...

and you could do the SAME thing with black people and homicide and aggravated assault rates. Then you would go on to say those particular rates are racist to say. Are you ready to stop rationalizing away the deaths that everyone is facing and stop arguing over skin color and start talking about police brutality?

or do you want to keep arguing about something besides the point? if so, why?

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#308

Post by komali2 »

kuzimoto wrote: post #301
komali2 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only after a police station was burned down. Lord forbid nobody caught the murder on video. This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard. What would have happened if it was citizens? All four would be in jail immediately , if they even get that far without being shot for "resisting arrest" first. At the very least they'd get a beating some…

> Only after a police station was burned down. I feel like that's more coincidence than anything > This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard I bet there is tons of anecdotal data to support any claim. There needs to be aggregated data that shows it's happening in high enough rates to be a "systemic" issue. > Would you merely "lose your…

> In most countries bystanders are not obligated to assist. So nothing would happen to you?

Ooooor you'd be an accessory to murder.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#309

Post by toast0 »

thebradbain wrote: post #61
coldcode wrote: post #4

Of course it does. But politicians who ramp up the rhetoric and threaten to have people killed does not. Flint and Camden and other cities where the police sat down or walked with the protestors have no issues. People connecting to people with understanding rarely results in violence. I think places where the police still walk a beat (or other regular outreach over a wide area) and get to know the locals rarely have…

"As they would rather not tax people to pay for it" I think you may be underestimating how much cities dedicate their budgets to police spending: "Mayor Eric Garcetti's 2020-2021 city budget gives police $3.14 billion out of the city's $10.5 billion. That's the single biggest line item, dwarfing, say, emergency management ($6 million) and economic development ($30 million)." (In fact, LAPD is getting pay raises while…

This is off topic for the overall thread, but important for this thread.

> "Mayor Eric Garcetti's 2020-2021 city budget gives police $3.14 billion out of the city's $10.5 billion. That's the single biggest line item, dwarfing, say, emergency management ($6 million) and economic development ($30 million)." (In fact, LAPD is getting pay raises while LA teachers are getting a pay decrease)

The Los Angeles Unified School District boundaries don't match the Los Angeles city boundaries, so comparison is tricky, but the most recent budget available (2018-2019) was $13.8 billion. [1]

In California, school districts are not connected to city government, despite like all the mayors ever always talking about them. Zero of the LA city budget goes to LA schools, because school districts get their money from the counties they're in and the state. I don't know if San Francisco has a county government separate from its city government, so it may be an exception.

[1] http://ssr.lausd.net/BudgetTransparencyDistrictGrp1.aspx?Fis...

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