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De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

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Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#291

Post by smileysteve »

adrr wrote: post #139
drusepth wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-police and I do NOT want mayhem. The ideal protest in my eyes is a peaceful, effective one. One that causes real change -- like increased oversight, accountability, altered training, etc -- in the general police population: one that fixes the very real problems we've seen with police for years and continuously improves law enforcement for years to come. Claiming "pro-police forces WANT mayhem" paints the sit…

When you see protestors with rubber bullet wounds to the head, there are police actively trying to kill protestors. Every training video says to shoot at the legs to prevent death. We really need to purge police departments of these people who view themselves as enforcers who dish out punishment.

Police are trained to shoot for stopping power. A head shot on a target is a missed shot. There is no excuse for the number of rubber and pepper shots that have been above center mass.

They're either murderous or have "lucky" bad aim.

Exceptions apply for swat snipers in hostage situation

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#292

Post by thephyber »

whymauri wrote: post #109
vkou wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, in Seattle: https://old.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/gu3qq1/cop_just_ca... How would you describe the sheriff casually tossing the tear gas grenade as anything but cartoonishly evil? How would you describe his co-workers, holding the line, without even looking twice at his behaviour?

Seattle PD maced a child and the officer who did it faced no repercussions. Is the Chief of Police a toothless position? The only other conclusion is that maybe GP should consider removing Seattle's Chief as a supporting example. I would consider macing children to be "cartoonishly evil."

> Is the Chief of Police a toothless position?

Kinda.

In big cities in states with strong union laws, the burden is very high for cause to fire an officer. Even when there is a firing, the officer can appeal and sometimes be reinstated. It opens the department up to liability if they don't wait for the normal "follow the evidence, build the case" flow.

When there are big protests in big cities, the regional police departments actually share officers. I would bet that about half of officers on the riot line in Seattle were actually from surrounding suburbs or from the state police. I don't think Seattle's chief can fire one of those officers; he would have to do an inter-agency thing that I'm sure is pretty complicated.

Also, the chief has to walk a thin line of perverse incentives. He needs the department to be functional and to do that, he can't be seen as making an example of an officer (for "morale" reasons). He also has to consider that police officers will leave a department in droves and the chief ends up with more problems if crime rises due to "bad management" of the department.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#293

Post by shigawire »

kuzimoto wrote: post #271
sagarm wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police brutality is a systemic issue. Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. The Police reaction to these protests clearly shows systemic reform is needed. Peaceful protesters and reporters have been tear gassed, shot, and arrested. They don't deserve to be tret like that just because others decided to vandalize and loot.

> Police brutality is a systemic issue. That's a pretty bold claim. Do you have any statistics to show police are by and large using disproportionate force? > Peaceful protest over the years haven't changed the system. Charging that one officer doesn't solve it either. There are bad people in society. That doesn't mean the whole system is bad. Of course there is room for improvement, and action should be taken to rem…

>But let's get this clear, it was violent rioting that was occurring. In that situation, how are you to quickly separate the two groups?

The crowd of people slowly marching while getting shot and teargassed or the protesters. Those in the liquor store are the looters. Pretty simple.

If firing indescriminantly into a crowd makes it hard to tell these groups apart it sounds like the police tactics need work.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#294

Post by partiallypro »

I'm no fan of the police, but I think it's a lot easier to say something should be deescalated when you are miles away in your home and not on the ground with some people throwing objects at you, some of which have in the past included molotovs. Mob mentality is a very dangerous thing, that goes both ways.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#295

Post by tcbawo »

adrr wrote: post #250
tcbawo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a police officer is a difficult, thankless, dangerous job, yet critical for a functional society. You don't get the same resources, respect, or pension of the military. If you are let go/fired, you have little chance of finding something comparable close by. It's not healthy for the psyche to be put into harm's way for an entire career span. There is probably a lot of untreated PTSD going on. It's not surprisin…

Being a police officer isn't a dangerous job, it isn't even in the top 10 of most dangerous jobs in the US. No one thanks the 7-11 clerk for the danger they put themselves into so you can buy a Slurpee at 2AM in the morning. No one thanks the crab fisherman who risk their lives so you can enjoy "all you can eat" snow crab legs at Red Lobster. There's lots of extremely brutal jobs that are thankless. People who pick y…

From a quick Google search, this article lists sherriff/police officer at 14th most dangerous job: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/careers/2018/01/09/work... The most common cause is intentional injury by another person. The police, like everyone with power needs accountability. But I don't know if being overpaid is the core problem.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#296

Post by komali2 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #269
silverreads wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

11,000 claims of abuse in the last 3 days just in seattle is low?

You can't retroactively justify a riot based on police conflicts with rioters. It violates causality.

But as the article says - why were there riots at all? Because the cops were firing on peaceful protesters!

Evidence abounds.

They committed police brutality, at the protests against police brutality. It genuinely boggles the mind.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#297

Post by briefcomment »

komali2 wrote: post #241
briefcomment wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't understand the power the government can wield if there is "justification" for it. The only way to have the government serve us instead of control us is to be loud, in the majority, and peaceful. At least in a country like the US.

What you're saying hinges on the people never stepping outside the bounds of what the US government deems acceptable. Consider that the US government deems what we want (no more police brutality) unacceptable, by definition, we need to work outside the system to solve the problem. It's similar to 2a people I've met that think that somehow the constitution guarantees their right to overthrow the US government if it be…

The US government will also never fall to external forces, unless we are nuked. Their power far exceeds what most of the general population can imagine. The only way to change life as a citizen is to get the majority of the population on your side and to be loud. And if you get criminal or violent for no reason (there's a difference between directly fighting against police brutality and beating a small business owner senseless because he doesn't want you robbing him) the government will easily squash you.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#298

Post by thephyber »

smileysteve wrote: post #291
adrr wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you see protestors with rubber bullet wounds to the head, there are police actively trying to kill protestors. Every training video says to shoot at the legs to prevent death. We really need to purge police departments of these people who view themselves as enforcers who dish out punishment.

Police are trained to shoot for stopping power. A head shot on a target is a missed shot. There is no excuse for the number of rubber and pepper shots that have been above center mass. They're either murderous or have "lucky" bad aim. Exceptions apply for swat snipers in hostage situation

> They're either murderous

Which is the whole point of the protests. If an officer is on a riot line and is murderous but the other officers on the line don't take them out (send them home or prosecute them), then the officers are just selectively enforcing the law (which I realize is a concept in US law enforcement) to the point of being corrupt.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#299

Post by lsh123 »

scarmig wrote: post #187
lsh123 wrote: post #121

Could we please stop calling “protesters” all the people looting jewelry stores, Target, Nike, etc? These are not protesters, these are looters. Police should use any means at their disposal to protect lives and property from looters and rioters.

By the same token, can we please stop calling "police" all the people bashing in heads, punching journalists, planting evidence, instigating violence? They are not police, they are violent thugs. Protesters should use any means at their disposal to protect their own lives from violent thugs.

Absolutely, that’s exactly why 2nd amendment is important.

Re: De-Escalation Keeps Protesters and Police Safer

#300

Post by akiselev »

alexashka wrote: post #233

It takes just a few rotten apples on the side of the protestors to make it go violent. It also takes just a few rotten apples on the side of the police to make it go violent. Protesting is largely a modern witch hunt. It lets people blow off some steam, rather ineffectively in the modern protest case, because you don't get to burn anyone alive at the end of it. Enough people long for that witch hunt finale, and that'…

Protests are an opportunity for those in power to fix things before the protests escalate. They were fine with things as they are now it has escalated. Burning witches might not be enough this time.
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