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UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

private-eye.co.uk

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Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#111

Post by claudiawerner »

enitihas wrote: post #78
strogonoff wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone wondering what this is about, see Rotherham investigation[0]. It’s a fairly damning read. I can’t remember the figures as far victim counts (read this a long time ago and am not eager for a refresher), any number would be too big frankly. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploit...

It is a very damning read. Quoting just one part "... had been sexually abused in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013 by predominantly British-Pakistani men. ... The failure to address the abuse was attributed to a combination of factors revolving around race, class and gender—contemptuous and sexist attitudes toward the mostly working-class victims; fear that the perpetrators' ethnicity would trigger allegations of raci…

It's a very sad and horribly managed situation in the name of supposedly good intentions. However, the facts and details have been drummed up over the years by Murdoch-owned media, and the statistics used to "prove" the extent of the abuse, and its attribution to "Asian men" has been criticized as not only unscientific but pseudoscientific. There's a good overview of the history of the case, its media attention, and journalistic standards, by Cockbain and Tufail, two academic criminologists, here[0]. Not only that, but some of the victims themselves have spoken out about being used as playing chips for right-wing rhetoric in Rotherham (as noted in the paper).

>Javid’s response to Champion was scooped by The Times’ aforementioned Andrew Norfolk and reported as the home secretary having ‘ordered research into why men convicted of grooming-gang sex crimes are disproportionately of Pakistani origin’.44 Although this angle misrepresented Javid’s actual letter, it was repeated across numerous news outlets – and neither Javid nor Champion apparently cared to correct it.45 Consequently, the impression stood that ethnic disproportionality in ‘grooming gangs’ was an accepted fact and legitimate focus for government-commissioned research.

And rather importantly:

>Although criminal justice data on ethnicity should always be treated cautiously (and data on religion are simply not collected as standard), Asians were notably not overrepresented among the approximately 172,000 men and 27,000 women convicted of sexual offences in England and Wales in 2016.

[0] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/03063968198957...

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#112

Post by matthewheath »

tomhoward wrote: post #30

Some points to consider: - From the article: “Starting in late 2004, before the FOIA came into force in early 2005, Downing Street implemented an automatic 90-day deletion of emails aside from those specifically selected by civil servants as relevant for storage in the National Archives” - Since the invention of the telephone, it's never been an expectation that transcripts of telephone calls between MPs or officials…

UK FOI isn't constrained by that. The responding party use specific exemptions if something doesn't exist, so you can effectively do fishing expeditions as long as the request isn't excessively burdensome, etc.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#113

Post by easterncalculus »

tomhoward wrote: post #30

Some points to consider: - From the article: “Starting in late 2004, before the FOIA came into force in early 2005, Downing Street implemented an automatic 90-day deletion of emails aside from those specifically selected by civil servants as relevant for storage in the National Archives” - Since the invention of the telephone, it's never been an expectation that transcripts of telephone calls between MPs or officials…

It's really not the same to equate using a medium that is standard and normally does not record and using a non-standard medium and also explicitly choosing to not log conversations. The explicit choice can mean a world of difference.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#114

Post by zajio1am »

emilfihlman wrote: post #45

Forcefully deleting stuff from my device is super annoying and I'll fight that to the bitter end.

Yes, software that forcefully deletes received messages from recipient device is software acting against intent and will of its user (recipient). We have one word for such software - malware.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#115

Post by tomhoward »

easterncalculus wrote: post #113
tomhoward wrote: post #30

Some points to consider: - From the article: “Starting in late 2004, before the FOIA came into force in early 2005, Downing Street implemented an automatic 90-day deletion of emails aside from those specifically selected by civil servants as relevant for storage in the National Archives” - Since the invention of the telephone, it's never been an expectation that transcripts of telephone calls between MPs or officials…

It's really not the same to equate using a medium that is standard and normally does not record and using a non-standard medium and also explicitly choosing to not log conversations. The explicit choice can mean a world of difference.

That doesn’t seem reasonable to me. People will communicate via the most expedient means available. The telephone wasn’t “standard” until suddenly it was. Signal’s use is widespread, and people choose it because it has been designed to be very secure and private. The auto-deletion of messages is a key part of that security and privacy. It seems reasonable that politicians are entitled to use secure and private online communications, just as all other citizens are, and just as they always have via phone and spoken conversation.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#116

Post by smnrchrds »

lowdose wrote: post #109
sky_rw wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, I have several friends working on wall street who flat out refuse to discuss anything related to a stock over email. Every discussion with them no matter how trivial is on the phone.

No paper trail, no investigation.

Don't phone, fax, and snail mail have more legal protections than email and other new communication methods as well?

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#117

Post by nitwit005 »

dan-robertson wrote: post #17

I’m in two minds about this. I think it’s pretty sleazy to be using signal to evade record keeping requirements. I also think it’s important to have transparency into things governments do. But I also worry that such requirements can lead to worse results. Generally in a well run organisation, you want people to be able to speak their mind and disagree about things, but if the organisation makes a bad decision and th…

The source of the leaked communications would be another MP, as presumably no one else would have access. That means enforcing such a rule would create a parliamentary privilege debacle.

And since this is a non-recorded communication, about non-secret matters, how do determine if anyone actually broke the rule or not? There will never be evidence to back up an accusation, unless someone admits to it for some reason.

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#118

Post by vondro »

tarkin2 wrote: post #24

I can’t help but laugh a sad laugh. I oppose government monitoring and support transparency. And I support Signal to avoid monitoring and now it’s used to remove transparency. I can’t get my friends to install Signal because they say they have nothing to hide from their government and now the same government is using Signal to hide from my friends. Moxie should add it to the advertising blurb:” We’re so secure the Br…

Re: trying to get friends to install Signal Been there, but it got even harder as Signal makes it mandatory to set a PIN now which cannot be skipped, all because of future 'cloud backup' feature. It kinda stinks to me, as Signal bragged about not keeping almost any metadata, and now they want to keep backups. Whats worse, it seems there is no opt-out.

Makes it hard to recommend Signal now.

As a Signal user, what do you think about Signal's recent development?

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#119

Post by tarkin2 »

vondro wrote: post #118
tarkin2 wrote: post #24

I can’t help but laugh a sad laugh. I oppose government monitoring and support transparency. And I support Signal to avoid monitoring and now it’s used to remove transparency. I can’t get my friends to install Signal because they say they have nothing to hide from their government and now the same government is using Signal to hide from my friends. Moxie should add it to the advertising blurb:” We’re so secure the Br…

Re: trying to get friends to install Signal Been there, but it got even harder as Signal makes it mandatory to set a PIN now which cannot be skipped, all because of future 'cloud backup' feature. It kinda stinks to me, as Signal bragged about not keeping almost any metadata, and now they want to keep backups. Whats worse, it seems there is no opt-out. Makes it hard to recommend Signal now. As a Signal user, what do y…

I’ve not followed them too much but trust Moxie since his previous decision were good.

I think Signal is trying to gain more mainstream adoption and it will need backups for that. The pin is annoying but if it gives the app secure backups then I guess it’s a good idea. Although I agree having an opt-out would be good (but I expect most people want backups)

Re: UK government MPs are using Signal’s automatic deletion feature

#120

Post by noir_lord »

timthorn wrote: post #70
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear he didn't create the show, he's one of its stars.

The show was a successful transition to television of the Radio 4 classic, "The News Quiz"

Indeed, I love The News Quiz though I still miss Sandy, the new host is great but not a match.
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