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Fuchsia overview

fuchsia.dev

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Re: Fuchsia overview

#171

Post by fluffy87 »

catern wrote: post #35

>Fuchsia aims to provide drivers with a binary-stable interface. In the future, drivers compiled for one version of Fuchsia will continue to work in future versions of Fuchsia without needing to be modified or even recompiled. This approach means that Fuchsia devices will be able to update to newer versions of Fuchsia seamlessly while keeping their existing drivers. This is a massive step back for open source. The fa…

This has only happened on Linux for commodity hardware. But Nvidia and others (hpc interconnects, routers,...) usually ship their own proprietary drivers, or even Linux forks.

Re: Fuchsia overview

#172

Post by TulliusCicero »

cletus wrote: post #93

I can't help but think that if microkernel architectures were such a good idea, that would explain why every popular OS is a microkernel architecture (oh wait...). Snark aside, this is a serious debate since the inception of Linux [1]. It's important to look at Fuchsia through the lens of what problems it solves in Android/Linux because that tells you a lot. As we know, receiving updates in Android is, well, a cluste…

Did you read the article?

One of the things it explicitly calls out is that Fuchsia is not a microkernel.

Re: Fuchsia overview

#173

Post by axegon_ »

I've been eyeing Fuchsia for some time now and wanting to give it a spin but I've been holding back just to make sure it doesn't get abandoned(despite having a well maintained fork already). Real shame they pulled the plug on the raspberry pi support.

Re: Fuchsia overview

#174

Post by stewbrew »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #170
stewbrew wrote: post #165

I still think its strange to create an OS that officially supports only 2-3 languages for development. Sounds rather 1980s to me.

2-3 languages? It has support for C, C++, Dart, Rust, and Go. And I think some level of support for Swift.

I wouldn't be so sure about Go. Anway, I found certain remarks somewhat irritating in this respect. I'm happy if it turns out I misunderstood something.

Re: Fuchsia overview

#175

Post by fluffy87 »

cycloptic wrote: post #65
ptomato wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For various reasons, but nothing fundamental. "Hardware vendors being unwilling to make the drivers they write open source" is a pretty fundamental reason. Which is worse, a phone where you can't update kernel because of the closed drivers or a phone where you can update the kernel, with closed drivers? I don't think that realistically there's a third option. The open source community is not, for example, going to…

I would not say that is a fundamental reason. They have been willing to do it when the proper incentives are there. The incentive to keeping it closed source is primarily part of a strategy to sabotage their competitors, which I hope is not a behavior that anyone here is complicit in. Please don't work for hardware companies that do this, there are plenty of companies out there that know how to spend their money in o…

This claim is wrong. It’s not about sabotaging competitors, it’s about being afraid that your competitors would steal your IP they gives you an advantage.

Every Nvidia and Intel competitor (AMD) is probably already reverse engineering their binary drivers and binary libraries trying to steal their IP, so Intel and Nvidia’s fears are imo justified.

If NVIDIA or Intel could easily protect their open source code from being stolen from AMD, the story would be different. But you can’t prevent somebody from reading even GPL code, being “inspired” by it, and writing something different enough that does the same thing with the same ideas. Like just look at the LLVM project were people look at what GCC code does every now and then for “inspiration”.

Re: Fuchsia overview

#176

Post by michaelmrose »

joshuamorton wrote: post #168
michaelmrose wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia actually DOES have good OpenGL drivers that are unfortunately proprietary. AMD GPU drivers have been getting progressively better to where they represent a valid alternative for gaming. Intel GPU drivers have long been good enough for general use. I think the principal is that if Google had licensed Fuchsia in such a way as to require release of source code to kernel modules that companies would rightly fear b…

> Nvidia actually DOES have good OpenGL drivers that are unfortunately proprietary. I think this proves GP's point.

The year is 2027 and you have in your hand the 2025 model of the Samsung Galaxy Note 17 and you really wish you could run some snappy new version of the OS Samsung released for the galaxy note 19 but even though hardware wise they are really quite similar there is something in the proprietary bits that just doesn't seem to work but lacking the source you are forced to give up.

You wonder if you can install a new android or other Linux based OS can be installed on your hardware unfortunately no gpu drivers exist for Linux so again you are forced to give up. The only software you can run is the official software from your OEM. In theory the OS you run is open source but if anyone who isn't a major OEM builds an alternative version it works as expected without proprietary bits and binaries signed by the manufacturer your device wont talk to your email provider, your bank, netflix, spotify. Instead of free as in beer or free as in libre its free as in bullcrap.

The point is without the onus being on OEMs to provide source for their drivers people have only as many options as OEM's opt to give them.

Re: Fuchsia overview

#177

Post by AsyncAwait »

fluffy87 wrote: post #175
cycloptic wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not say that is a fundamental reason. They have been willing to do it when the proper incentives are there. The incentive to keeping it closed source is primarily part of a strategy to sabotage their competitors, which I hope is not a behavior that anyone here is complicit in. Please don't work for hardware companies that do this, there are plenty of companies out there that know how to spend their money in o…

This claim is wrong. It’s not about sabotaging competitors, it’s about being afraid that your competitors would steal your IP they gives you an advantage. Every Nvidia and Intel competitor (AMD) is probably already reverse engineering their binary drivers and binary libraries trying to steal their IP, so Intel and Nvidia’s fears are imo justified. If NVIDIA or Intel could easily protect their open source code from be…

> Every Nvidia and Intel competitor (AMD) is probably already reverse engineering their binary drivers and binary libraries trying to steal their IP, so Intel and Nvidia’s fears are imo justified. If NVIDIA or Intel could easily protect their open source code from being stolen from AMD, the story would be different.

Intel's GPU drivers are free software, they even contribute them themselves, same goes for AMD.

I think NVIDIA's different because they have the Apple mentality of them being the real innovators, (regardless of fact) and building their internal culture on secrecy, closeness even to other teams within the company etc. I think they consider it as part of their 'coolness factor', together with the CEO being on stage dressed like a rock star from the 80s.

The fact that they benefit from Linux massively and that having an open driver would win them massive goodwill is not directly measurable in terms of their balance sheet, at least in the short term, plus it would remove some of the secrecy.

Re: Fuchsia overview

#178

Post by joshuamorton »

michaelmrose wrote: post #176
joshuamorton wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nvidia actually DOES have good OpenGL drivers that are unfortunately proprietary. I think this proves GP's point.

The year is 2027 and you have in your hand the 2025 model of the Samsung Galaxy Note 17 and you really wish you could run some snappy new version of the OS Samsung released for the galaxy note 19 but even though hardware wise they are really quite similar there is something in the proprietary bits that just doesn't seem to work but lacking the source you are forced to give up. You wonder if you can install a new andr…

NVidia has no incentive to provide good opengl drivers for Linux, today despite it being GPL.

Creating a new OS, that is also GPL will not encourage Nvidia more to do the thing they already aren't doing.

Re: Fuchsia overview

#179

Post by Jyaif »

stewbrew wrote: post #165

I still think its strange to create an OS that officially supports only 2-3 languages for development. Sounds rather 1980s to me.

It would be strange to create such an OS, which is why that's not the case of Fuchsia:

"Fuchsia is designed to let developers bring their own runtime, which means a developer can use a variety of languages or runtimes without needing to change Fuchsia itself"

Re: Fuchsia overview

#180

Post by pjmlp »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #177
fluffy87 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This claim is wrong. It’s not about sabotaging competitors, it’s about being afraid that your competitors would steal your IP they gives you an advantage. Every Nvidia and Intel competitor (AMD) is probably already reverse engineering their binary drivers and binary libraries trying to steal their IP, so Intel and Nvidia’s fears are imo justified. If NVIDIA or Intel could easily protect their open source code from be…

> Every Nvidia and Intel competitor (AMD) is probably already reverse engineering their binary drivers and binary libraries trying to steal their IP, so Intel and Nvidia’s fears are imo justified. If NVIDIA or Intel could easily protect their open source code from being stolen from AMD, the story would be different. Intel's GPU drivers are free software, they even contribute them themselves, same goes for AMD. I thin…

They do so by using different teams, and their open source variants always lag behind what their closed source drivers are capable of doing across Windows, Apple and game consoles.
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