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Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

supremecourt.gov

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Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are still allowed religious service and practice, but in a controlled way that will not spread the virus.

The issue is that the government is putting more restrictions on the church than it does grocery stores. If California put the same restrictions on grocery stores, as it did churches they would be more consistent with US law. Otherwise, the government has to prove that the difference in restrictions is so important it outweighs the religious concerns raised by the plaintiffs. (This is a high bar to reach in the US.)…

People need food to survive. No one needs religion.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#232
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too am dissapointed that this ruling was not unanimous, but the majority opinion is not much better. Both opinions seem to agree on the law generally, in that restrictions on places of worship must be no more onerous than restrictions on "comparable" secular activities. The dispute is what qualifies as comporable. The majority feels that services are comparable to "theatrical performances, where large groups of peo…

How much caselaw would there be on comparison of churches to other venues where people gather? What sort of disputes in the past would have revolved around the similarities or differences? Perhaps disputes about zoning or occupancy permits? You don't see a whole lot of that kind of dispute rising through the courts to make a lot of case law.

Zoning is a big area where churches often are found to have more freedom. The basic argument is that putting arbitrary restrictions on a church is a violation of the 1st Amd.

There is nuance, such as, if the state can prove to a court that a zoning restriction is necessary. For example, a rule against high occupancy buildings in a flood plain, or the like, may be okay. While a rule against off street parking in a residential neighborhood, or the like, may not be enforced against churches.

Generally, US governments get into trouble if they put restrictions on religious institutions that are not absolutely necessary.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#233
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you advocating gun stores have to remain open for the right of the people to own a gun? How am I supposed to bear arms if I can't obtain arms? I think it's fairly reasonable to close gun shops if all other stores are closed, but there's no reason not to allow gun shops to open under the same terms as other shops. Maybe pickup / curbside only, maybe strict simultaneous customer limits, whatever. > Why would anyb…

I’m strongly in favor out stronger gun control but find your argument here reasonable. After a bit of googling I see that gun stores are indeed allowed to provide for curbside pickup and are open: http://reedsindoorrange.com/

Well, I use to be in favor of gun control. But, knowing what I do about the history of this country, any “War on Guns” will be just like the War on anything else, it will target minorities. We’ve already seen this in California. When the Black Panther Party legally started carrying guns, Reagan was quick to pass the Mulliford Act when he was governor - with the support of the NRA.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#234

The only thing that should be surprising about this ruling is the dissent. They can’t cite any applicable case law because there isn’t any. Up until now the Court has always treated the states’ (note states and not federal) police power in a pandemic to be near plenary. This is in line with English common law that developed under the shadow of the repeated waves of Bubonic Plague. Maybe that should change in light of…

I too am dissapointed that this ruling was not unanimous, but the majority opinion is not much better. Both opinions seem to agree on the law generally, in that restrictions on places of worship must be no more onerous than restrictions on "comparable" secular activities. The dispute is what qualifies as comporable. The majority feels that services are comparable to "theatrical performances, where large groups of peo…

It would be interesting to see how this case would go with a fully developed case. Here, I appreciate that the SCOTUS is making a hasty and abbreviated ruling here on the emergency stay request. This makes sense practically in view of CA voluntarily reducing some of the earlier restrictions and given the fact that it seems that restrictions will be further reduced in the near future. Thus, there is no need for the SCOTUS to provide a fleshed out opinion absent a fully developed record and full briefing.

This order is 6 pages, I imagine it would be 60 pages or more if it actually ripened into a real appeal.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that the government is putting more restrictions on the church than it does grocery stores. If California put the same restrictions on grocery stores, as it did churches they would be more consistent with US law. Otherwise, the government has to prove that the difference in restrictions is so important it outweighs the religious concerns raised by the plaintiffs. (This is a high bar to reach in the US.)…

People need food to survive. No one needs religion.

I take issue with that statement. Yes, people need food to survive, and yes, one can survive without religion, but that shouldn’t be the argument. It should be that one can worship from home; one doesn’t need to go to a religious building for worship.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just find it weird that nobody is bringing up Matthew 6:5. I can hardly imagine any example of "praying to be seen by men" purer than the politicization of opening churches right now. I have this feeling like, surely the cognitive dissonance will hit any minute now? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:5

First of all, a religious text is not relevant in us court case, even if about a religious case. Secondly, Christianity as practiced today is very different and not something Jesus would have understood at all so in many ways the Bible and Jesus is not key to understanding American Christianity.

To say Jesus wouldn't understand modern Christianity is presupposing the Trinity is false, isn’t it? Otherwise, Jesus is part of the tripartite godhead and is aware of everything the Tetragrammaton and the Holy Spirit are aware of, which is more than the totality of existence of space-time.

Not to make this a religious discussion, just striving for a steelman interpretation of the religious logical stance.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#237
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am aware of the comparison and you're misunderstanding. Fire exits don't prohibit free excercise of religion. The government's authority to say "actual murder" as you put it (by the way, is capital punishment murder? Because honor killings are capital punishment under a different law.) is wrong is legitimate only because they honor the rights of the governed, a critical and primary right being the right to assemble…

What's wrong with Sharia law? As far as I know it's generally accepted in the US and presumably in other civilized countries that parties who agree to decide their disputes in alternative settings such as religious courts are allowed to do so. It's not something done by members of one religion only either. Jewish and Christian sects do it/have done it historically. I'm definitely against anyone being able to give up…

I was saying sharia enforced for criminal punishment contrary to secular law as an example.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#238
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s arguable that churches conduct essentially business per se, but they do provide a venue to conduct Constitutionally-protected activity.

They take in revenues and provide services — is that not the very definition of a business? A food bank does the same and is a business.

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying but disagree on the letter when it comes to matters of law. When church service is on, or the church is otherwise open to the public, it is “open for business” in common parlance. However, I disagree that it “does business” in the same way that any other kind of public place does. That is because the First Amendment is clear:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

It’s just not equal in the eyes of the courts, the law, or in legal standing. You don’t need a business license to open a church, to my knowledge. Even if you did, that doesn’t change their tax exemption status and other exemptions and differences in operation and interfacing with other legal and zoning entities. They are not treated equally under the law as other institutions. In some ways they are legally similar to schools and other higher learning institutions in the regulations which apply to church property; firearm regulations, for instance, apply to schools and religious places of worship differently than your home, or in your car, or on the street or sidewalk.

You can’t equivocate because religious places of worship are not equal to places of business. In the eyes of many churches, the congregation is the church proper, not the building, so if you ban the gathering, you have banned the exercise of another’s religious beliefs in a real, meaningful way. That is the part which is unconstitutional, which is where we disagree on the letter of the law.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#239
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with Sharia law? As far as I know it's generally accepted in the US and presumably in other civilized countries that parties who agree to decide their disputes in alternative settings such as religious courts are allowed to do so. It's not something done by members of one religion only either. Jewish and Christian sects do it/have done it historically. I'm definitely against anyone being able to give up…

If an unmarried daughter has sex, the father can kill her. I think that shouldn't be allowed.

That's your opinion, a right is retained despite majority opinions. Constitutional rights specifically outline legitimate relationship between government and governed where violating that constraint breaks the contract allowing the government to make and enforce laws.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#240
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They can’t cite any applicable case law There's several cases cited in the dissent. Succinctly the argument is: >“restrictions inexplicably applied to one group and exempted from another do little to further these goals and do much to burden religious freedom.” Robertsv. Neace, 958 F. 3d 409, 414 (CA6 2020) (per curiam). What California needs is a compelling justification for distinguishing between (i) religious wor…

I'm not sure that is very on point. Secular businesses are something different in gathering type than Church services. And when it comes to gatherings where there would be similar close contact inside with often static groups of people, the Supreme Court majority properly made that comparison: "similar or more severe restrictions apply to lectures, concerts, movie showings, spectator sports, and theatrical performanc…

Religious practice is incredibly varied. And unless the rule is "don't be religious," religious people will try to be flexible. Christians have an obligation to gather, but many churches can satisfy that obligation with a 15 minute service, no singing, and ample distancing, if those are the rules.

Theaters, concerts, and theatrical performances have a harder time changing the product. "Wonder Woman 1984 in 15 Minutes" doesn't sell. Cutting a college lecture down to 20 minutes doubles or triples the number of lectures needed to cover the material.

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