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Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

supremecourt.gov

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Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#61

The only thing that should be surprising about this ruling is the dissent. They can’t cite any applicable case law because there isn’t any. Up until now the Court has always treated the states’ (note states and not federal) police power in a pandemic to be near plenary. This is in line with English common law that developed under the shadow of the repeated waves of Bubonic Plague. Maybe that should change in light of…

Historically, The states power was plenary is because everyone had first hand observational knowledge of the pandemic; they lost friends, family, acquantences, and so forth. Nobody on the street knew how bad it was at the time until statisticians had time to study records from the time, which to be frank, took decades.

We're becoming a technological society; most people recieved life-saving information directly from infectious disease experts giving interviews on CNN, Fox, CNBC, and so forth. If you are successful in stopping a pandemic, most people won't know you stopped it, and furthermore, once you have it contained, you have to deal with keeping it contained because unlike spanish flu, you have no herd immunity.

I think just on first hand knowledge alone, most people don't believe there's been a pandemic and they'd be correct in that viewpoint; something else, something very novel, and probably very good for us all, has gone on.

What I find particularily onerous about this ruling is the Supreme Court is using the term "church" in their writing; given, it's a church that's filing the lawsuit, however, they are not using language such as "places of worship" or "Religious instutitions". Do these rules apply to Synagoges and Mosque's? It gives the feeling that if we were dealing with those institutions, an entirely different discussion would be had and that's dangerous given groups of armed protesters are willing to peacefully walk in and occupy government buildings in a show of force.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#62

I’m religious and attend(ed) church weekly. I think this is great news. These idiots who are still trying to gather for church are so incredibly selfish.

I don't think it's fair to say that people who make a different assessment of risks and/or have different risk tolerance than you are "incredibly selfish". Lockdown, social distancing, mask-wearing, and other related changes in behavior are all about trade-offs in the face of uncertainty.

Maybe you're right - but maybe you're wrong.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#63
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether there is a pandemic or not isn't given great weight by either side. Both sides implicitly agree that California isn't allowed to go out of its way to penalize churches, but they disagree on whether it has done that. Robert's order says that "similar or more severe restrictions apply to lectures, concerts, movie showings, spectator sports, and theatrical performances." He concludes that California is not singl…

You don’t need much in the way of reasoning, or any really, to deny an emergency stay order. The presumption is and should be very much against.

Sure, but neither side is presuming that emergency orders are (un)constitutional.

Both opinions do ultimately agree that emergency orders are, in general, constitutional during a pandemic. And not by presumption, but by an examination of the laws and facts.

That is why neither position makes this a central question: not because it's presumed, but because they both ultimately agree it's not a point of contention.

The point of contention is whether this particular order's treatment of churches is constitutional. Not whether the orders in general are constitutional.

Once both sides agree that the orders are in general constitutional, the argument that churches should be allowed to stay open while some other similar things stay closed now does require an argument.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need much in the way of reasoning, or any really, to deny an emergency stay order. The presumption is and should be very much against.

Sure, but neither side is presuming that emergency orders are (un)constitutional. Both opinions do ultimately agree that emergency orders are, in general, constitutional during a pandemic. And not by presumption, but by an examination of the laws and facts. That is why neither position makes this a central question: not because it's presumed, but because they both ultimately agree it's not a point of contention. The…

There seems to be some very mild confusion here. An "emergency stay order" doesn't refer to an order to stay home during an emergency. It's a request to the court to ask for the enforcement of the law to be temporarily halted (stayed) for the reason that it will cause immediate or irreparable harm to the moving party (it will injure the religious establishments).

There's no question that such requests are generally Constitutional.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#65
post #17

Two thoughts on apolitical, pragmatic grounds: This is a good ruling regardless of the importance of religious beliefs one might have. Churches are still subject to baseline rules like building codes, food safety (if they have a kitchen), have to pay their phone bill or else lose phone services,and the like. This represents an appropriate segregation of responsibility and allows parishioners to participate without ha…

As a legal bystander, I often feel the Supreme Court writes dissenting opinions for future-proofing the law. Regardless of whether they think the opposing argument is good or not, they don't want to lock a different generation into having to obey present day opinions that would be unsuitable for the country as it will be then. The dissenting opinion can be cited as justification for changing the precedent, allowing those justices to come to a different conclusion.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#66
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rules that were challenged were the 25% capacity and no more than 100 people rules that newsom issued recently, after public outcry that the original rules (no church until phase 3) were inappropriate. The church in question seems to have focused on the 25% capacity portion of the new rules.

How are those rules different from the Fire Marshall rules on maximum occupancy?

[deleted]

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ruling wasn’t about whether churches should abide by restrictions. And it is ridiculous to frame it that way. A case like this probably would never make it to the Supreme Court. The question was whether it is discriminatory to open some non-essential businesses but keep churches closed.

It’s arguable that churches conduct essentially business per se, but they do provide a venue to conduct Constitutionally-protected activity.

> they do provide a venue to conduct Constitutionally-protected activity

So does virtually everywhere in the country (speech)

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#68
post #43

To paraphrase a well known orthodox rabbi in the US who wrote a long letter on the topic where he rules that one should wait where he ends: "we can to wait on returning to synagogue attendence, but we can't bring back a life".

Judaism is fundamentally a religion of laws, but virtually any of those laws may be broken in order to save a life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh

Not "virtually any". Most can, some can't. The link lists several exceptions; of particular note is various forms of disrespecting Jehova.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#69
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dissent explicitly lists: > "factories, offices, supermarkets, restaurants, retail stores, pharmacies, shopping malls, pet grooming shops, bookstores, florists, hair salons, and cannabis dispensaries. " I think saying religion is equivalent to sports is pretty strange. People clearly place way more importance overall on religion than they do on sports, even in a country that's pretty crazy about sport. I would de…

That list is not really accurate, shopping malls, bookstores, florists, hair salons, and cannabis dispensaries are still closed I believe. Pet grooming is open, and to some extent I agree with you (although I have used one). In my opinion the difference is that social distancing is trivial. We left the pet in the trunk and they picked her up from there and delivered her back there. No human interaction. I find this f…

All those businesses are allowed to open under the current state order. A few of them weren’t allowed until the middle of last week though.

Re: Supreme Court says state may enforce some restrictions on religious gatherings [pdf]

#70
post #17

Two thoughts on apolitical, pragmatic grounds: This is a good ruling regardless of the importance of religious beliefs one might have. Churches are still subject to baseline rules like building codes, food safety (if they have a kitchen), have to pay their phone bill or else lose phone services,and the like. This represents an appropriate segregation of responsibility and allows parishioners to participate without ha…

As a legal bystander, I often feel the Supreme Court writes dissenting opinions for future-proofing the law. Regardless of whether they think the opposing argument is good or not, they don't want to lock a different generation into having to obey present day opinions that would be unsuitable for the country as it will be then. The dissenting opinion can be cited as justification for changing the precedent, allowing t…

Are they cited in that manner? (I don’t know either way, just curious)
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