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SpaceX successfully launches two humans into orbit

nasa.gov

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Re: SpaceX successfully launches two humans into orbit

#51
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RCS engines are practically always hypergolic since you need to be able to pulse on and off very easily/quickly, and propellents need to be storable (non-cryo). If you look at the choices remaining, they're all various levels of extremely toxic.

Buran had non-toxic components for RCS. Kliper was planned with non-toxic RCS. Soyuz spacecraft at least has non-toxic components for capsule RCS, so when the capsule lands, it doesn't need to be approached in a chemical protection suit. It's not a question of choices - there are choices. I suspect it's a question which is considered less important so far, so SpaceX didn't pay that much attention to it, considering t…

For Kerosene/Gaseous Oxygen like Buran used, you'd need some sort of sparkplug right? That seems inherently less reliable.

> so SpaceX didn't pay that much attention to it

That's quite an assumption. They didn't decide as you would have, so they must not have thought about it much?

Re: SpaceX successfully launches two humans into orbit

#52
post #44
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think NASA considers it an issue? Maybe not, but they'd better do. The experience can be changed - SpaceX, for example, convinced them that loading fuel is better done with crew onboard. The point is, it's better not to have toxic components close to humans, and it also can be done technically. There could be reasons otherwise, but so far I don't see them particularly convincing, robustness and all notwithst…

Non-toxic would be better than toxic. What would be the options? Compressed cold-gas (which don't have much kick, and require compressed gas which carry their own dangers). You could go with a monoprop Hydrazine which would eliminate half the toxic stuff. There are also some new developments here: hydroxylammonium nitrate (HAN)/water/fuel ? No idea of the trade offs there. Biprop hydrocarbon/gaseous compressed oxygen…

> What would be the options?

Soyuz uses straight hydrogen peroxide, I believe, 82% concentration. For 3 tons capsule it takes 30 kg of peroxide - monopropellant - to land.

Buran is still the example of a high tech option - it used LOX and kerosene for RCS, the biggest trick was to keep LOX liquid for a month-long missions. It was done with mid-1980 technologies.

Kliper planned to use LOX and ethanol. The craft wasn't completed in metal though.

One has to remember that hydrogen peroxide - the rocket concentrations are called HTP, high test peroxide - can be used as an oxidizer, after a catalytic decomposition - and after decomposition HTP is easily hypergolic with fuels. "Hypergolic" doesn't mean "nitrogen-containing, long-storing and toxic", it means "self-igniting" - and it could be non-toxic (or at least HTP toxicity is on the whole different level that hydrazine's one).

To come back from orbit you don't need too much delta-V. So Soyuz uses 30 kg of peroxide, maybe it would use 15 kg of hydrazine for the same effect - you're saving 15 kg in a 3 ton spacecraft but losing on toxicity. Similarly, Crew Dragon is a heavier craft, flying on a bigger F-9 rocket, it can probably allow for some extra mass spent for RCS fuel in order to make it non-toxic.

> You could go with a monoprop Hydrazine which would eliminate half the toxic stuff.

Hydrazine is, I think, a way bigger half. NTO is comparatively benign... not so carcinogenic. But still lethally dangerous :( .

> Biprop hydrocarbon/gaseous compressed oxygen?

Was done at least. Yes, it would require extra systems. You think it can't be done?

> Do you consider high-test peroxide non-toxic?

Comparing to hydrazine - yes.

> The decomposition would also make storage and rotation a consideration.

Yes. Have to chill it, take care while in storage and keep tanks extra clean. But still.

Re: SpaceX successfully launches two humans into orbit

#53
post #23
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t say she is that much more grounded: she has also said they are planning on passenger New York Shanghai rocket trips for a price between an economy and business class plane ticket by 2028: https://www.vox.com/2018/4/11/17227036/flight-spacex-gwynne-... Not a prototype or demonstration, a real commercial flight service.

So that's longer than from Alan Shepard's flight to Moon landing. And the task - with all peculiarities - still seems simpler. I don't think this points to the "ungroundness" of Shotwell. Similar projects were discussed and BOTEd for quite some time. The whole suborbital tourism thing is practically rather similar technology, and we're a couple of decades in the implementation time for that.

It is hard to emphasize how much harder that last X% of reliability is to allow something like this for flights of hundreds of civilians. We’re not talking space tourism but a utilitarian service for business travelers and stuff.

Hey don’t even have a settled design and have made radical design changes recently.

SpaceX commercial crew program began in 2010 and is only just coming to fruition.

Re: SpaceX successfully launches two humans into orbit

#57
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RCS engines are practically always hypergolic since you need to be able to pulse on and off very easily/quickly, and propellents need to be storable (non-cryo). If you look at the choices remaining, they're all various levels of extremely toxic.

Buran had non-toxic components for RCS. Kliper was planned with non-toxic RCS. Soyuz spacecraft at least has non-toxic components for capsule RCS, so when the capsule lands, it doesn't need to be approached in a chemical protection suit. It's not a question of choices - there are choices. I suspect it's a question which is considered less important so far, so SpaceX didn't pay that much attention to it, considering t…

Buran was using LOX, storing it for up to two weeks with a cryocooler and a complicated cooling system, Crew Dragon can be rated for hundreds of days and doesn't have the volume/mass/cost to spare.

Dreamchaser with its propane/N2O thruster is a better counterexample. They avoided toxic components so it could theoretically land at any airport, making it a strong selling point. There are also new(-ish) hydroxylammonium nitrate based propellants which are storable, better than hydrazine and aren't toxic either.

Re: SpaceX successfully launches two humans into orbit

#58
post #52
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-toxic would be better than toxic. What would be the options? Compressed cold-gas (which don't have much kick, and require compressed gas which carry their own dangers). You could go with a monoprop Hydrazine which would eliminate half the toxic stuff. There are also some new developments here: hydroxylammonium nitrate (HAN)/water/fuel ? No idea of the trade offs there. Biprop hydrocarbon/gaseous compressed oxygen…

> What would be the options? Soyuz uses straight hydrogen peroxide, I believe, 82% concentration. For 3 tons capsule it takes 30 kg of peroxide - monopropellant - to land. Buran is still the example of a high tech option - it used LOX and kerosene for RCS, the biggest trick was to keep LOX liquid for a month-long missions. It was done with mid-1980 technologies. Kliper planned to use LOX and ethanol. The craft wasn't…

I'm not sure I can agree with your priorities here, but fair enough. Would be nice to see some progress.

Re: SpaceX successfully launches two humans into orbit

#59

Who else has prepared snacks and beer? I can feel blood in my ears how excited I am. Good luck SpaceX & NASA!

It is quite an achievement. This paves the way forward for eventual space colonization.

Agree with it being an achievement. And watching the first stage land was amazing. But chemical engines can get us only to the asteroid belt.
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