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US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

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Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When cops who choke a white person to death aren't charged, there's far less outrage. For example, David Glen Ward was killed by a police choke hold six months ago. The deputy responsible was fired, but no charges have been filed. https://www.kqed.org/news/11818476/deputies-blunt-force-neck...

Not trying to justify the cops killing that guy, but it’s a pretty different scenario for at least a couple reasons: 1) The guy was armed and leading a high speed chase 2) I don’t think there is a long, long, documented history of cops murdering the unarmed white guys without any real consequence

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Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#412
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of major differences. My understanding is that helicopters can’t typically reach and maintain the altitude that unmanned drones can, making drones more effective to be used in less conspicuous ways. There’s also the difference in the baseline level of security between the two. Helicopters do go down from time to time, thus creating a human risk that isn’t present in drones. I feel that since drones…

>thus creating a human risk that isn’t present in drones. most unmanned drones used today have a far higher history of 'unintended forced landings' than most other military craft -- when you use planes that have a high risk of crash over metropolitan and suburban areas, the human risk multiplies . The US military has 'lost' about 400 'large' drones between 2001 and 2014. To put that 400 number into perspective, the U…

>when you use planes that have a high risk of crash over metropolitan and suburban areas, the human risk multiplies.

Yeah, but it's not a risk to the government. The government is very good at weaseling out of responsibility for killing bystanders with little more than a settlement check. When people acting on behalf of the government get killed then that's when government gets held accountable.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#413
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if it was a new UAV, designed just for law enforcement? No problems then? Fewer problems. Presumably it would be much less capable. The sister comment[1] lays out how dangerous this UAV is, and how powerful. History has shown that the police/military are eager to gain capabilities, and very reluctant to part with them. If use of these very capable military grade drones becomes wide-spread, using them aggressiv…

> These have the capability to just provide 24h surveillance on certain areas, which would erode citizens' privacy greatly How so? Public spaces have already been ruled over and over to have no reasonable expectation of privacy. Further, the plethora of surveillance cameras sitting in store windows, people's doorbells, streetlight cameras, and more already surveil anyone in any public area. Is it just these UAV's are…

Different methodologies of surveillance have different costs, capabilities, and potential risks. In theory anyone stepping outside of their door could be observed at any time but in practice personal observation is very expensive and potentially obvious. Non network cameras controlled by a plethora of individual business owners might paint on net a very detailed picture of a persons comings and goings but acquiring and correlating that data likely limits it to discovering comings and goings in a limited geographical and temporal area of interest because of a major crime.

Pervasive cheap surveillance which needn't be attached to a very expensive mobile weapons platform or be limited to just cameras could be a birds eye view of everyone's lives. Good justifiable benefits are obvious. With enough surveillance crime becomes really hard to perpetrate. We can pick out all the drug dealers and make tons of arrests before people adapt. Petty stupid crime like breaking into a car means the eye of Sauron sees you and follows you back to your house. Acts of violence that don't take place inside buildings could prompt an immediate response at least as fast as the cops are capable of dispatching a unit. Acts of violence within a unit could be detected by mikes outside on street corners if we were even more surveillance minded. Perhaps we can train it to detect the sound of a person being beat. I don't like people getting hurt do you? Acts of terrorism or mass violence are even more important to prevent. With enough smarts maybe we can flag people likely to go postal or at least notice what is happening 30 seconds before the shooting starts. 30 seconds before instead of 2 minutes after might make a HUGE difference in body count.

As great as that sounds I'm sure you can think of 100 more dystopian use cases. It doesn't do us much good to treat cars as faster horses and not bothering to consider the implications.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#414
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The drone over Minneapolis is a MQ-9 reaper, aka "predator B", hunter-killer UAV. I'd guess this is a Gorgon Stare drone. https://longreads.com/2019/06/21/nothing-kept-me-up-at-night... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Stare#Development

Ok, so that’s a real thing, and not just a Charles Stross / Laundry Files reference. I guess it’s not too surprising that you would want to keep an eye out for rioting. Missiles would be a whole new level of messed up, though.

> Missiles would be a whole new level of messed up, though.

Of course they'll eventually call them "non lethal payloads" :P

The interesting things that could be done when you have a line of sight to these things, a little bit of knowledge of RF modulation and have nothing left to lose…

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#415
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The drone over Minneapolis is a MQ-9 reaper, aka "predator B", hunter-killer UAV. I'd guess this is a Gorgon Stare drone. https://longreads.com/2019/06/21/nothing-kept-me-up-at-night... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Stare#Development

Is this the tech that's essentially a bunch of phone camera sensors stitched together?

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Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#416
post #379
post #22

This was very predictable. Tools invented for military operations abroad eventually, predictably find their way back domestically. Despite that, its a dangerous thing to happen. I am aware of how unlikely it is for the current US Government to use the drone offensively, but once you have a massive fleet of drones flying over the US, patrolling "troubling" neighborhoods constantly, the temptation to use those abilitie…

There seems to be a slightly schizophrenic relationship between the public and the government. The rather vocal wings of political discourse understand that half the time government will be controlled by people they really don't like. However the practical resistance to giving said people access to and control over major aspects of people's lives seems to be rather weak.

No kidding about the schizophrenia. I don’t understand how people can implore the government to do more such as UBI or universal healthcare yet in the same breath complain about not being able to trust the “police state.” I doubt we can have privacy and a strong effective government. A strong government will be one that’s in your life a lot. Whether it’s under the auspices of good intent or not is probably irrelevant by that point.

edited for clarity

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#417
post #79
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With all that's happening the last few days, please don't associate Minnesotans with the riots that have captured the attention of everyone. I understand what you're going for, but this is a bad approach. People aren't rioting because they want to destroy things, they're rioting because they don't feel like they're being heard. What you're saying here reads as "don't listen to them, they don't represent us" which i…

What I don't understand is why many of these small businesses — which have items of value to many people — were targeted. To me, that's burning to burn, damaging to damage, and looting to loot. https://www.startribune.com/these-minneapolis-st-paul-buildi... This is my home. I visit many of these businesses. I do business with two owners on that list. There are groups of people out here who, yes, are looting to loot a…

Is there a (real or perceived) class divide in the area? Just curious because I don't know, but I remember in prior riots some people explained that rioters felt like business owners were on a different level to residents and taking advantage of them in various ways like higher prices or not employing locals, so that helped paint them as targets.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#418
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fellow HN user, I welcome you with warmth so please don't take what I say offensively, but as a different perspective. > What happened is awful. It doesn't reflect how genuinely kind people in Minnesota are and how we, collectively feel about what happened and the movement at large. There will always be edge-cases as there is with any situation in any context. But for everyone that I've known, for everyone I've met a…

Another fellow Minnesotan here and former Minneapolis resident (used to live a mile away from Hiawatha and Lake back in the day). >Characterizing what is happening as an edge case is a huge mistake. People do not spontaneously start protesting with so much anger if it hasn't built up over so long. These protests are at least partly drummed up by out of state agitators, and are implicitly condoned by a feckless and we…

> Saying "enough is enough" means going to the polls

What if voter suppression or gerrymandering exists? What if no candidate wants to address police brutality? What if issues are easily forgotten over a multi-year cycle with a complicit media?

Rioting shouldn't be a first choice, but polls don't fix everything.

Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#419
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the US a police state? Can you give examples? In this case even, the police officers were responding to a 911 call from a store clerk that claimed a man matching Floyd’s description had attempted to use counterfeit money (crime) and was acting erratically. So, they were doing their job in responding to that call.

> they were doing their job in responding to that call. People aren't angry because they responded to the call. Watch this video in case you haven't: https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/05/29/george-floyd-kneele... > How is the US a police state? There's not a simple yes or no answer to this question. But if you sincerely want to understand where people are coming from when they make the claim, you ought to do some re…

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Re: US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

#420
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be a slightly schizophrenic relationship between the public and the government. The rather vocal wings of political discourse understand that half the time government will be controlled by people they really don't like. However the practical resistance to giving said people access to and control over major aspects of people's lives seems to be rather weak.

No kidding about the schizophrenia. I don’t understand how people can implore the government to do more such as UBI or universal healthcare yet in the same breath complain about not being able to trust the “police state.” I doubt we can have privacy and a strong effective government. A strong government will be one that’s in your life a lot. Whether it’s under the auspices of good intent or not is probably irrelevant…

I might be one of these people?

I want a government that trusts us and respects our rights (e.g., non police state) and that helps to provide for the poor and vulnerable (e.g., healthcare).

I don't see any conflict between these goals. Our medicare providers are not flying drones and kneeling on necks.

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