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Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

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Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#311
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CDC also said it shouldn't be used for covid unless it was in a hospital, as part of a clinical trial. They said this because it is dangerous. Currently CDC refers to NIH for advice about using Hydroxychloroquine: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/therapeutic-op... https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/whats-new/ > Chloroquine/Hydroxychloroquine: > The Panel recommends against using high-dose chl…

lol why do people keep associating this with COVID-19? Nowhere did I mention COVID-19. Hydroxychloroquine is primarily an anti-malaria drug, which the article is about.

> lol why do people keep associating this with COVID-19?

Because:

1. The article doesn't mention hydroxychloroquine and

2. Hydroxychloroquine is being touted as a cure to Covid 19, a claim that has its basis in politics, not science. Part of the claim being made is exactly the (wrong) claim you were defending: that hydroxychloroquine is safe--as if safe/unsafe were a binary.

If you go from an article about malaria to an only tangentially-related topic of hydrochloroquine and basically parrot Trump's untrue claim that hydrochloroquine is perfectly safe, you shouldn't be surprised if people assume that you're agreeing with Trump's claim that hydrochloroquine should be used to treat Covid-19.

Understand that claims occur in a context. The CDC's claim that hydrochloroquine is well-tolerated is in the context of treating a very deadly disease (malaria) that it is proven to treat. Your claim that hydrochloroquine is safe occurs in the context of treating a much less deadly disease (Covid 19) which it may actively exacerbate. Maybe you intended your claim in the context of treating malaria with hydrochloroquine, but that wasn't the context you said it in.

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to this New York Times article from the beginning of May, excess deaths in the United States outpaced official Coronavirus reporting by 33%. This obviously varies significantly by country. Certainly many more people are dying at home than previous years. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/05/us/coronaviru... The key phrase if you want to learn more is "excess deaths"

My understanding is that excess deaths statistic would also COVID deaths. You'd need to subtract COVID deaths from excess deaths. (and be certain that all COVID deaths are reported as such...)

Right - so ~25% of excess deaths in April in the United States were not directly caused by COVID-19, but were almost certainly indirectly caused by the virus, either via the 'medical care chilling effect' mentioned above, or through misattribution, or through other mechanisms like the increase in suicide.

This excess death mechanism has the potential to be very severe in very poor countries, where famine is likely to follow this plague. It's really quite sad.

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#313
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human category is limited, I believe, to intentional killing. Otherwise you open up a whole can of worms about macroeconomic trolley problems. (Am I killing people right now by making insufficiently-optimal donations to charity?)

Presumably if you're speeding or driving while intoxicated, you're doing so intentionally. It's not as if someone is forcing you to drive too fast or too drunk. These things (especially speeding) dramatically increase the likelihood of being in a collision.

It's difficult issue.

While I think that we should totally put the blame on drunk drivers, I would still make a distinction between negligence and intentionality.

Saying that drunk drivers intentionally kill people opens the door to saying that bad doctors kill people, bad medicine teachers kill people, people who vote for the wrong politicians kill people, politicians who enact bad laws kill people, etc.

At that point the discussion devolves into "your party kills people because your ideology is wrong", "no, yours is"

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#314
post #231

One of my classmates came back from Africa to Europe this March without any symptoms. 10 days later she got high fever, dizziness, and unfortunately she could not even recognise her family. Everyone thought its COVID, and doctors recommended her to stay home to not spread the "virus". Unfortunately when she got the the hospital, the diagnostics was too late to and she died in malaria 1,5 days later. Please beware of…

Hydroxychloroquine would have helped, ironically.

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#315
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unfair because Mosquitos don't kill anyone. They are a vector for pathogens that kill. Humans are also vectors for pathogens, we just don't count them as such.

Pathogens aren't animals, so the mosquito is the one counted. They don't count humans the same as other animals, instead, they count homicide/war (intentional killing), and you can just consider it a point of reference. Are you going to count accidents? Suicide? Anything that can be traced to human decisions? Anything that can be traced to human biology? Any way you count humans, it just isn't going to be equivalent.

In the chart, the humans vs. mosquitos are not fairly comparable.

First - if you're going to say 'mosquitos kill humans because they transmit disease' and then include humans for a completely different reason (i.e. homicide) makes for an odd comparison.

For example, what if human transmission of the communicable disease results in some massive amount of death, which could very well be the case?

Second - mosquitoes are carrying a lot of otherwise benign things, which most people recover fine from. Possibly things like the flu. Well some people die from the flu, but very rarely. So I'm not sure if the fact it was communicated by a mosquito or something else makes sense.

Maybe inanimate objects, like the door handle to your public building, contribute more to basic pathogen spread, like the flu, in which case again, that would put things in context.

It's a tricky thing to compare lions attacking people to mosquitos that happen to spread in some cases, some minor thing that in may have rare deadly consequences.

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#316
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an Oncologist who was talking about how the number of women coming in for regular exams was non-existent for two months. A few months is enough time for breast cancer to go from stage 1 to stage 2, and for 5 year survival rates to drop by a third[0]. There are going to be a ton of secondary effects due to prematurely closing or clearing out hospitals and clinics, and many people have already died from compl…

A few months is enough time for breast cancer to go from stage 1 to stage 2 ... Do women normally have breast exams every few months?

Exams performed by someone else? About once a year.

A self-exam once a month is one of those "good hygiene" things, though, and might be a decent idea to promote right now while people are getting cagey.

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand where you'd get that implication. Some presumably fairly predictable fraction would have an exam scheduled during the beginning of the epidemic, and a certain fraction of them would have undiagnosed cancer. It seems reasonable to assume significant negative consequences for those people.

Presumably some women would have had an exam in February but developed enough cancer to be visible in March, so delaying a couple of months had a huge positive impact on their outcome. How can we measure the net result of all these variables?

The way you measure it is how the GP defined it: percent women who develop early stage breast cancer per month * number of months closed per year.

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#318
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make no mistake, the West would do DDT all over again if that was the price for getting rid of Malaria. But a very targeted intervention is off limits due to 'well, we don't know, something might go wrong'. Nature doesn't care if humans all die. Nature doesn't 'care' at all. Humanity does. And this looks very ugly and very hypocritical.

"The West" is doing DDT all over again. This time it's neonicotinoids, and just like with DDT, they're being pushed by ag conglomerates as a way to increase profits, with a side of "cigarettes give you healthy skin!" style propaganda to make them look innocent. Last time, we "merely" almost wiped out a whole class of apex predators and caused a collection of trophic cascades. This time, with a menu of unintended cons…

Malaria used to be endemic in the USA as far north as New York. The USA "did DDT" specifically to eliminate malaria [1]. And it worked, the stuff is so nasty and persistent it completely wiped out the disease reservoir in the mosquito population. Was it worth the price? I'm an Audubon supporter and bird watcher, but I value human lives more highly.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/history/elimination_us.htm...

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes you wonder how many people have actually died so far this way. Being told to stay home and not spread covid, meanwhile something else is actually terribly wrong.

There was an Oncologist who was talking about how the number of women coming in for regular exams was non-existent for two months. A few months is enough time for breast cancer to go from stage 1 to stage 2, and for 5 year survival rates to drop by a third[0]. There are going to be a ton of secondary effects due to prematurely closing or clearing out hospitals and clinics, and many people have already died from compl…

I think this is a very misleading way of looking at it.

For example the US Preventative Task Force evaluates evidence and recommends screening guidelines as well as giving the strength of the evidence.

For breast cancer, the only recommended screening is that women age 50 to 74 have mammograms every 2 years. And that is B grade evidence.

https://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/uspstf/recomme...

With screenings, you have to be really careful about selection bias. Basically, screening will catch a larger proportion of slow growing cancer. Also with respect to staging, the slower growing a cancer, the earlier the stage you will catch it at.

My guess would be that if you have a cancer that is rapidly going from stage 1 to stage 2, you would already have a worse outcome and the 2 months screening hiatus is not going to be that big a difference maker.

EDIT:

In case people ask about clinical breast exams and self breast exams, here are the American Cancer Society guidelines:

"Research has not shown a clear benefit of regular physical breast exams done by either a health professional (clinical breast exams) or by women themselves (breast self-exams)."

https://www.cancer.org/cancer/breast-cancer/screening-tests-...

So the only guidelines with evidence backing them up call for 2 year screenings. Within that framework, a 2 month delays are not going to be very clinically significant.

Re: Mosquitoes kill more than 700k people every year (2017)

#320
post #231

One of my classmates came back from Africa to Europe this March without any symptoms. 10 days later she got high fever, dizziness, and unfortunately she could not even recognise her family. Everyone thought its COVID, and doctors recommended her to stay home to not spread the "virus". Unfortunately when she got the the hospital, the diagnostics was too late to and she died in malaria 1,5 days later. Please beware of…

Wonder what the 2nd order death toll for covid due to things like this (not poverty starvation) is and how it stacks up to covid deaths
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