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Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

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Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#201

Post by WalterBright »

gumby wrote: post #158
austinl wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less than half of the students from my alma mater graduate within four years. When I learned this I was dumbfounded. The incentives are just not correctly aligned. The university is able to profit off of students taking fewer credit hours and staying more semesters, and academic advisors actively encourage this!

I learned (when MIT shut down my former dorm) that they track the six year graduation rate (doubt anyone is attending all of the six years). That seems more sensible.

When I was in college, there was one (only 1) student who took 6 years to graduate. Students passing by him would often mumble "7 years of college, down the drain!"

(I won't spoil the joke, google it!)

As I recall, only a small handful took 5 years. This drifting along failing to graduate seems to be a modern phenomenon.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#202

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

jawns wrote: post #62
jerf wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, if you're going to fall back on that perspective, Real Life (TM) has all those things too, and it will continue to do so, for essentially free. There will be clusters of that sort of thing somewhere, just as there are "retirement communities" and "bedroom communities" and such. Universities certainly aren't bringing anywhere near enough value for their marginal improvement on those matters vs. what wo…

The counterpoint to your argument is that if it is so easy to create those types of communities for much less money than what universities are charging, why hasn't it happened? I would guess that it's a combination of 1. not being as easy as it seems and 2. network effects. Because of the latter, you would basically have to persuade a large number of students to make the switch at the same time for them to feel as if…

It hasnt happened because in order to pay for such a services, it must be amortized off 30 years in the form of a subsidized loan by the govt.

Take that off the table, and watch those options happen

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#203

Post by pclmulqdq »

bambataa wrote: post #163
jboog wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the thrust of your argument but my flagship state university is still affordable for anyone. It's not cheap, but in state tuition even if you pay sticker isn't so high you can't pay it off in a reasonable amount of time (in state tuition is ~$9k). It's a great university too (UNC) so part of the way they keep tuition for in state cheap is out of state students pay almost as much as private school tuition…

As a non-American I've never really understood this "oh, in state is still cheap" argument. Does every state have a top university? What if your state doesn't have a good university for what you want to study? UNC sounds nice for people lucky enough to have been born in NC but why should out of state people pay more? Or do people move to a state specifically for the universities?

Remember that many US states are the size of European countries. This is the same deal that many countries in Europe have: subsidized tuition for residents.

Also, a lot of state systems have good schools: UC Berkeley, UMass Amherst, UIUC, UT Austin, and UW Madison come to mind.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#204

Post by [deleted] »

manquer wrote: post #200
tlibert wrote: post #179

Faculty member at a top-tier CS school. For most of the faculty where I am, an hourly consulting fee in the range of $500-1000 is reasonable. If you take the low-end of that range ($500) x 3 hours of class time per week ($1500) x 12 weeks of class you get $18,000 worth of expert time. Multiply that by three classes and you get $54k of value each semester, so even with non-trivial tuition it is still a pretty good dea…

That kind of consulting fees for 1:20 shared time with so many other students on topics they don't control flow of ??? (i.e. I don't get to choose the specifics on topic you are "consulting" on or dictate what and how you teach me). I wouldn't be able charge $ 10,000 - $20,000 for a 1:1 consulting session ! There are very very few people in the world who can command that kind of premium

[deleted]

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#205

Post by barry-cotter »

coryrc wrote: post #152
Avicebron wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question, is it illegal if the people are older than 18? Possibly with resident adults acting in some supervisory role. I'm imagining dorm like satellite communities for collective remote online learning.

I would doubt requiring the individuals be able to agree to contracts would be illegal, this effectively would be 18+. But you won't get young women joining if you also have to allow 55-yr-old male leches live next door. In University this is rare, but SROs can't discriminate in the same way.

Young women will live there if it’s cheap enough and safe, same as young men will. People live in apartments with cockroaches, rats and mold if they’re cheap enough, and not just young men.

I spent €100 a week to share a room with five others close to the center of Dublin city ten years ago. There weren’t any women in that room but there were women living in the apartment.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#206

Post by [deleted] »

bambataa wrote: post #163
jboog wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the thrust of your argument but my flagship state university is still affordable for anyone. It's not cheap, but in state tuition even if you pay sticker isn't so high you can't pay it off in a reasonable amount of time (in state tuition is ~$9k). It's a great university too (UNC) so part of the way they keep tuition for in state cheap is out of state students pay almost as much as private school tuition…

As a non-American I've never really understood this "oh, in state is still cheap" argument. Does every state have a top university? What if your state doesn't have a good university for what you want to study? UNC sounds nice for people lucky enough to have been born in NC but why should out of state people pay more? Or do people move to a state specifically for the universities?

[deleted]

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#207

Post by barry-cotter »

Avicebron wrote: post #156
coryrc wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would doubt requiring the individuals be able to agree to contracts would be illegal, this effectively would be 18+. But you won't get young women joining if you also have to allow 55-yr-old male leches live next door. In University this is rare, but SROs can't discriminate in the same way.

I'll cede we don't want 55-yr-old leches next door to young adults. But I'm not sure it's necessary it has to be an SRO, if from what I understand is a term for low income/homeless focused housing. There should be a way for the lower priced remote college tuition to pay for the housing and requirements for only remote attendees to live there. But maybe I'm not seeing something.

SROs are hotels cum boarding houses, cheap places to stay. They’re associated with the homeless in the US because the only places they haven’t been zoned out of existence are cities with many homeless activists.

The answer to “Why isn’t there cheap housing?” is always zoning and the motivation for the zoning is to keep poor people away to protect property prices.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#208

Post by ineedasername »

ben7799 wrote: post #10

This is just the straw that is popping the college bubble. My Alma mater has 15 administrators who make 2-3x more than the President did when I graduated. The President makes $5 million+. The VP/Dean of HR makes > $1 million. Administrators took a 5% pay cut. Lots of professors are furloughed or laid off. The school did all kinds of shenanigans to hang onto as much tuition/board/food money as they could. Students are…

From personal experience in the industry right now, this is not the case at all institutions. I certainly haven't done a survey, but I know of a few that have been very equitable in their refund policy.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#209

Post by unishark »

bambataa wrote: post #163
jboog wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the thrust of your argument but my flagship state university is still affordable for anyone. It's not cheap, but in state tuition even if you pay sticker isn't so high you can't pay it off in a reasonable amount of time (in state tuition is ~$9k). It's a great university too (UNC) so part of the way they keep tuition for in state cheap is out of state students pay almost as much as private school tuition…

As a non-American I've never really understood this "oh, in state is still cheap" argument. Does every state have a top university? What if your state doesn't have a good university for what you want to study? UNC sounds nice for people lucky enough to have been born in NC but why should out of state people pay more? Or do people move to a state specifically for the universities?

Education is considered a state responsibility, not federal. Every state generally has a "flagship" university. And they usually have the important stuff covered, such as professional schools, so that their state's population has these needed skills.

If you are a smart enough student that you would gain admission to one of the highly-ranked flagship universities of another state, you are going to win scholarships to private schools too. The lower the rankings you are willing to go, the better scholarships you can get.

You can relocate to get in-state benefits but it may take awhile as states put conditions (e.g. living there for a year first, having a a job, etc) specifically to prevent people doing this.

Re: Colleges face student lawsuits seeking refunds after coronavirus closures

#210

Post by malandrew »

hagy wrote: post #190
malandrew wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be quite honest, I see the same thing in my professional work. Everyone feels that their problems deserve more headcount. If this were the only reason, the invisible hand of the market would address this problem most of the time. Add too many administrators that add no value and you end up with a higher cost structure than your competitors and are not able to provide the same value. Most of the time people deman…

Regular market forces don't hold for college tuition for a number of reasons. Chief among these being that many students are paying with loans. Secondly, some students and their families view education as a veblen good, whereby higher price implies even higher value.

I know that. I wasn't addressing college. The OP was talking about in his profession, which I think was safe to assume was a different industry/profession.
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